Team Row Pain, Row Gain

[old] Meri Goehring · Post by **[old] Meri Goehring** » October 13th, 2005, 5:54 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steelhead @ Oct 13 2005, 12:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rowmantic @ Oct 12 2005, 09:02 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hi All,<br /> [snip]<br />I am a little worried about those of you who are using your erg with the damper set on 10. [snip] I was always advised to not put the damper on 10 so that I would not hurt my back. I use a C model in my home and keep the drag set at 116. I use the same drag factor for the D model when I use one. Depending on the age and maintenance of the machine that will mean that on some machines I have been as high as an 8 and on some (new ones) as low as a 1, but no matter where I need to make the adjustment, the drag is at a 116. I had a coach who once recommended that heavyweight women should set the drag between 115-120. Just some food for thought.<br /> [snip]<br />~Grace <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Grace,<br /><br />You are so right! After reading the posts about rowing at a 10 damper setting, I decided to do some HM's on a Model C at the Y at that setting (DF=178) to see how it felt. It was hard obviously, but I hit the wall on day three of my test.<br /><br />Here's what Concept2 says in pertinent part on its website vis-a-vis drag factor: <b>"It is important to note that, unlike weight lifting, the goal is not to use a higher drag factor as a means of achieving fitness on the Indoor Rower. It is much better to work with lower drag factor settings (110-140) while improving your speed, form and muscle coordination. Many of the world's top heavyweight competitors use settings in this range."</b> So, it is a good idea to experiment with DF settings of 110-140 to find out which one is best.<br /><br />I'm dropping back down to my normal DF.<br /><br />Also, even though rowing at a 178DF did not hurt my back, when I watch others at the Y row at a 10 Damper Setting I see their poor technique and form and the stress they place on their backs. Using a lower DF, and rowing strapless, will help our form and technique, and should eliminate most of the back problems being experienced by some team members (hopefully). I always remind myself that if my back hurts (it used to alot when I was a beginner) then its telling me I have bad technique and need to slow down, focus on my technique. <br /><br />Here's what the Ann Arbor Rowing Club has to say about DF: <b>"To avoid injury, please be conscious of the drag setting on the erg . . . . Ideally, you all will keep your setting around 120 (115-125 is acceptable). To adjust the drag, move the fan lever . . . up for more resistance and down for less. FAILURE TO DO THIS MAY RESULT IN BACK INJURY." (Emphasis in original)</b><br /><br />Mike <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I'm one of the 'never change the damper from 10' dummies. Last week, I finally followed the sage advise from others on this site, lowered to 5, and think my form improved. It took a lot of concentration. I feel I am pushing harder with my legs and know my split is lower. Funny thing, though, my pace also decreased. I should admit, yesterday I went back up to my 10 damper and logged my best time ever on 10000 meters. Today, a bit short on time, I tried a couple of 2000m as hard/fast as I could. Although I feel good, I realize it's probably not good for me. I'll go back to 5. Thanks for the tips and information. I certainly don't want to get hurt!<br />Meri

[old] sloro7 · Post by **[old] sloro7** » October 13th, 2005, 6:57 pm

Hello Everyone!<br />This RPRG group is great. I've lost about 3 pounds since I joined. Most of you probably already know that rowing early in the morning really kickstarts your metabolism into high gear. You will lose more weight if you row at this time on an empty stomach. Try it! I get up at about 4:30 am and do a light 2500m to 5000m. It takes a while for your body to warm up this early so take it easy at first. I work at a large University and have access to a Model C. I try to get on it a few days a week to supplement my morning rows.

[old] jimjayhawk · Post by **[old] jimjayhawk** » October 13th, 2005, 11:50 pm

Mike - good to see the Steelhead posting on RPRG... still sorry to see you off the team... <br /><br />Meri - I haven't used a public erg in over 12 years... I know my form stunk years ago, and perhaps still isn't what it could be. <br /><br />Sloro - this always sounds like a good idea to me... and while I am a morning person and have no problem getting up early... I don't know how long it might take me to get warmed up... and working out in the morning is a routine that I have never been able to get into. Although the late evening isn't a prime time, it is the only time that really fits the schedule of our house at this time. <br /><br />Jim S.

[old] deppe4 · Post by **[old] deppe4** » October 14th, 2005, 9:10 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steelhead @ Oct 13 2005, 12:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rowmantic @ Oct 12 2005, 09:02 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hi All,<br /> [snip]<br />I am a little worried about those of you who are using your erg with the damper set on 10. [snip] I was always advised to not put the damper on 10 so that I would not hurt my back. I use a C model in my home and keep the drag set at 116. I use the same drag factor for the D model when I use one. Depending on the age and maintenance of the machine that will mean that on some machines I have been as high as an 8 and on some (new ones) as low as a 1, but no matter where I need to make the adjustment, the drag is at a 116. I had a coach who once recommended that heavyweight women should set the drag between 115-120. Just some food for thought.<br /> [snip]<br />~Grace <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Grace,<br /><br />You are so right! After reading the posts about rowing at a 10 damper setting, I decided to do some HM's on a Model C at the Y at that setting (DF=178) to see how it felt. It was hard obviously, but I hit the wall on day three of my test.<br /><br />Here's what Concept2 says in pertinent part on its website vis-a-vis drag factor: <b>"It is important to note that, unlike weight lifting, the goal is not to use a higher drag factor as a means of achieving fitness on the Indoor Rower. It is much better to work with lower drag factor settings (110-140) while improving your speed, form and muscle coordination. Many of the world's top heavyweight competitors use settings in this range."</b> So, it is a good idea to experiment with DF settings of 110-140 to find out which one is best.<br /><br />I'm dropping back down to my normal DF.<br /><br />Also, even though rowing at a 178DF did not hurt my back, when I watch others at the Y row at a 10 Damper Setting I see their poor technique and form and the stress they place on their backs. Using a lower DF, and rowing strapless, will help our form and technique, and should eliminate most of the back problems being experienced by some team members (hopefully). I always remind myself that if my back hurts (it used to alot when I was a beginner) then its telling me I have bad technique and need to slow down, focus on my technique. <br /><br />Here's what the Ann Arbor Rowing Club has to say about DF: <b>"To avoid injury, please be conscious of the drag setting on the erg . . . . Ideally, you all will keep your setting around 120 (115-125 is acceptable). To adjust the drag, move the fan lever . . . up for more resistance and down for less. FAILURE TO DO THIS MAY RESULT IN BACK INJURY." (Emphasis in original)</b><br /><br />Mike <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ok, I've a "dumb" question. I have a Model D and I have my damper set at 3. When I went to "More Options" there did not appear to be a way for me to set my drag factor to 120. Does the Model D itself automatically adjust the drag factor based on my effort and the damper setting I've selected? Or am I missing something?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />deppe

[old] Sleepy_Floyd · Post by **[old] Sleepy_Floyd** » October 14th, 2005, 10:15 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(deppe4 @ Oct 14 2005, 09:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Ok, I've a "dumb" question. I have a Model D and I have my damper set at 3. When I went to "More Options" there did not appear to be a way for me to set my drag factor to 120. Does the Model D itself automatically adjust the drag factor based on my effort and the damper setting I've selected? Or am I missing something?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />deppe <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You can only measure and read the drag factor from the PM3. You can adjust it by changing the damper setting. If you want a higher DF, you increase the damper setting, and then check the PM3 monitor to see where its set at.<br /><br />SF<br /><br />

[old] Sleepy_Floyd · Post by **[old] Sleepy_Floyd** » October 14th, 2005, 10:22 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(sloro7 @ Oct 13 2005, 06:57 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hello Everyone!<br />This RPRG group is great. I've lost about 3 pounds since I joined. Most of you probably already know that rowing early in the morning really kickstarts your metabolism into high gear. You will lose more weight if you row at this time on an empty stomach. Try it! I get up at about 4:30 am and do a light 2500m to 5000m. It takes a while for your body to warm up this early so take it easy at first. I work at a large University and have access to a Model C. I try to get on it a few days a week to supplement my morning rows. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />WOW!! That's awesome, but there is no way I could get up at 4:30 AM to row.. In fact, most nights I dont start rowing/working out til around 11:00PM. and on some odd occassions, I dont finish til 1:30AM. <br /><br />I've lost about 20lbs since i bought my erg.. (~3 months ago). Its been a combination of diet (I cut out caffeine, soda, desserts and candy) and working out. <br /><br />Interesting that I've been weighing myself both before and after I go to bed.. and my weight has fluctuated by as many as 3 lbs between going to sleep and waking up. Maybe I'm kickstarting my metabolism to burn more calories while I'm sleeping. LOL<br /><br />SF

[old] Steelhead · Post by **[old] Steelhead** » October 14th, 2005, 10:31 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(deppe4 @ Oct 14 2005, 06:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Ok, I've a "dumb" question. I have a Model D and I have my damper set at 3. When I went to "More Options" there did not appear to be a way for me to set my drag factor to 120. Does the Model D itself automatically adjust the drag factor based on my effort and the damper setting I've selected? Or am I missing something?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />deppe <br /> </td></tr></table><br />There is no way to set your drag factor -- all you can do is see what it is at the various damper settings (on the Model D); on the Model C, however, the df is always visible in the lower right box after you press the rest and whatever buttons at the right time and then after you start rowing. That being the case, when you go into options and select DF on your Model D, you row a few strokes and it shows the DF for your D at a certain damper setting. You have to play around with the different damper settings to find out which damper setting results in a DF of 120 (probably 4) -- once you determine the right damper setting that gives you the DF you want, then you use that (although you have to check from time to time as your D ages the DF changes at the same damper setting).<br /><br />Mike

[old] Steelhead · Post by **[old] Steelhead** » October 14th, 2005, 10:34 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Sleepy_Floyd @ Oct 14 2005, 07:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Interesting that I've been weighing myself both before and after I go to bed.. and my weight has fluctuated by as many as 3 lbs between going to sleep and waking up. Maybe I'm kickstarting my metabolism to burn more calories while I'm sleeping. LOL<br /><br />SF <br /> </td></tr></table><br />During sleep, our bodies dehydrate -- so you are losing a lot of water (3lbs). How do you weigh yourself after you go to bed? Do you mean before you go to bed and after you get up?<br /><br />Mike

[old] rowmantic · Post by **[old] rowmantic** » October 14th, 2005, 11:51 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Meri Goehring @ Oct 13 2005, 04:54 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I'm one of the 'never change the damper from 10' dummies. Last week, I finally followed the sage advise from others on this site, lowered to 5, and think my form improved. It took a lot o I feel I am pushing harder with my legs and know my split is lower. Funny thing, though, my pace also decreased. I should admit, yesterday I went back up to my 10 damper and logged my best time ever on 10000 meters. Today, a bit short on time, I tried a couple of 2000m as hard/fast as I could. Although I feel good, I realize it's probably not good for me. I'll go back to 5. Thanks for the tips and information. I certainly don't want to get hurt!<br />Meri <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /> <br />Meri,<br /> When you say that your pace decreased were you referring to your strokes per minute or your splits? <br />~Grace

[old] Meri Goehring · Post by **[old] Meri Goehring** » October 14th, 2005, 12:18 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rowmantic @ Oct 14 2005, 10:51 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Meri Goehring @ Oct 13 2005, 04:54 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I'm one of the 'never change the damper from 10' dummies. Last week, I finally followed the sage advise from others on this site, lowered to 5, and think my form improved. It took a lot o I feel I am pushing harder with my legs and know my split is lower. Funny thing, though, my pace also decreased. I should admit, yesterday I went back up to my 10 damper and logged my best time ever on 10000 meters. Today, a bit short on time, I tried a couple of 2000m as hard/fast as I could. Although I feel good, I realize it's probably not good for me. I'll go back to 5. Thanks for the tips and information. I certainly don't want to get hurt!<br />Meri <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /> <br />Meri,<br /> When you say that your pace decreased were you referring to your strokes per minute or your splits? <br />~Grace <br /> </td></tr></table><br />At the 5 damper setting, my strokes per minute went down from my usual of around 30 to 26 or 28. My splits (usu. 2:18-2:20) decreased (to 2:15-2:16) but only with concentration. Even a few seconds of distraction and my pace (usually around 30) would increase (to about 32-33) and splits revert to 2:18-2:20. Maybe that's normal.

[old] cnapier · Post by **[old] cnapier** » October 14th, 2005, 12:42 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rowmantic @ Oct 12 2005, 11:02 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hi All,<br /><br />snip <br /> <br /> been training for the Head of the Charles; <br /><br />snip<br /><br />~Grace <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Grace,<br /><br />I sure hope you don't own a pike... <br /><br />but I'm going to keep an extra watchful eye towards my rear regardless.<br /><br />Charles<br />254/201/158

[old] Sleepy_Floyd · Post by **[old] Sleepy_Floyd** » October 14th, 2005, 1:06 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steelhead @ Oct 14 2005, 10:34 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Sleepy_Floyd @ Oct 14 2005, 07:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Interesting that I've been weighing myself both before and after I go to bed.. and my weight has fluctuated by as many as 3 lbs between going to sleep and waking up. Maybe I'm kickstarting my metabolism to burn more calories while I'm sleeping. LOL<br /><br />SF <br /> </td></tr></table><br />During sleep, our bodies dehydrate -- so you are losing a lot of water (3lbs). How do you weigh yourself after you go to bed? Do you mean before you go to bed and after you get up?<br /><br />Mike <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />technically, weighing myself after getting up is still after I go to bed. LOL nice catch though.. yeah.. i realize its water weight I'm losing.. even counting that, i've still lost weight.

[old] Steelhead · Post by **[old] Steelhead** » October 14th, 2005, 1:18 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Meri Goehring @ Oct 14 2005, 09:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />At the 5 damper setting, my strokes per minute went down from my usual of around 30 to 26 or 28. My splits (usu. 2:18-2:20) decreased (to 2:15-2:16) but only with concentration. Even a few seconds of distraction and my pace (usually around 30) would increase (to about 32-33) and splits revert to 2:18-2:20. Maybe that's normal. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hi Meri,<br /><br />That's what you want to happen: your SPM decreases as your split increases (of course, usually as your SPM increases your split increases too). When you decrease the damper setting, you have to power your legs to kick up the split. For example, yesterday when I rowed with the damper setting at 10, my split was 2:09 at about 22 SPM; with the damper setting at 5, my split was 1:45 at about 25 SPM.<br /><br />Keep up the good work.<br /><br />Mike

[old] jimjayhawk · Post by **[old] jimjayhawk** » October 14th, 2005, 4:46 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steelhead @ Oct 14 2005, 12:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>That's what you want to happen: your SPM decreases as your split increases (of course, usually as your SPM increases your split increases too). When you decrease the damper setting, you have to power your legs to kick up the split. For example, yesterday when I rowed with the damper setting at 10, my split was 2:09 at about 22 SPM; with the damper setting at 5, my split was 1:45 at about 25 SPM.Mike <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mike & Grace.... <br /><br />I'm still a bit confused... and while some think my confusion is a perpetual thing, I suspect one or both of you ( or someone else) may be able to straighten me out... <br /><br />On my model B, I switched to the inside sprocket... it does pull much "lighter"... however, similar to Meri, I am finding that my SPM has decreased from the 28-30 range down to 22 to 26... and that I have to really concentrate to keep my split under 2:20... and can't seem to find the power to get it below 2:05.... whereas on the outside sprocket 2:20 was pretty easy... and with effort could pull the splits down in the 1:30's or so (for a minute or two anyway).... <br /><br />I can report that my heartrate has gone up higher and faster than it had with the outside sprocket... however I can't fathom the explosion I would need from my legs to have a split in the 1:30's <br /><br />What is it about form that will improve those splits? Other than not fouling my back, what is the advantage of the lighter pull? <br /><br />Jim S. <br /><br /><br />

[old] Steelhead · Post by **[old] Steelhead** » October 14th, 2005, 7:39 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jimjayhawk @ Oct 14 2005, 01:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Mike & Grace.... <br /><br />I'm still a bit confused... and while some think my confusion is a perpetual thing, I suspect one or both of you ( or someone else) may be able to straighten me out... <br /><br />On my model B, I switched to the inside sprocket... it does pull much "lighter"... however, similar to Meri, I am finding that my SPM has decreased from the 28-30 range down to 22 to 26... and that I have to really concentrate to keep my split under 2:20... and can't seem to find the power to get it below 2:05.... whereas on the outside sprocket 2:20 was pretty easy... and with effort could pull the splits down in the 1:30's or so (for a minute or two anyway).... <br /><br />I can report that my heartrate has gone up higher and faster than it had with the outside sprocket... however I can't fathom the explosion I would need from my legs to have a split in the 1:30's <br /><br />What is it about form that will improve those splits? Other than not fouling my back, what is the advantage of the lighter pull? <br /><br />Jim S. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Jim,<br /><br />I guess the first point is that using a Model B there is not much you can do to lower the drag factor significantly. I have rowed using the small outer gear sprocket and the inner gear sprocket and with the vents opened and closed (partially and fully), before I knew anything about drag factor. On my B, now that I have a PM3 monitor I can view the drag factor and it is around 180 (large gear sprocket vents closed). I suspect your B will be similar.<br /><br />My sport of choice is weight training and so I always felt that using the Model B was like weightlifting. In fact, when I row on the B I maintain and increase my strength (if I am taking a break from weight training) but when I row on a Model C at a lower drag factor I lose strength (if I am not weight training); hence, a high DF is weight lifting as so many people on forums have stated. But we are supposed to be rowing; not weightlifting.<br /><br />According to Concept2: “It is important to note then that, unlike weight lifting, the goal is not to use a higher drag factor as a means of achieving fitness on the Indoor Rower. It is much better to work with lower drag factor settings (110-140) while improving your speed, form and muscle coordination. Many of the world's top heavyweight competitors use settings in this range.” Basically, rowing at different DFs has nothing to do with strength, but has everything to do with quickness and technical accomplishment (precision). The issue therefore is whether you want to “weight lift” on the erg or “row” on the erg.<br /><br />“Erging/rowing and weight lifting are very different. In rowing, the force on the handle and chain are proportional to the speed of application of the levers, not the height of the drag. If you row at a high drag, you row sluggishly, with no foot speed, leg speed, back speed, arm speed, hand speed. In the rowing stroke, low drag also encourages a separation of the levers: legs, then back, then arms. A high drag encourages a collapsing of the levers into one simultaneous motion. Because of the sliding seat, collapsing the levers into one motion has a significant on stroke length, if you calculate this in terms of cumulative distance of levers applied. In rowing, stroke length is one of the most important factors in generating physiologically efficient speed. Fundamentally, a high DF tends to require more back (the reason why some people hurt/strain their backs), while a lower drag encourages more use of the legs (using the legs burns more calories than using the back and arms).”<br /><br />Someone else posted: “Actually, rowing at 200 or 120 df does not give you automatically more or less strength or muscular bulk. As PaulS wrote somewhere, the erg has no inherent resistance; it is an isokinetic exercise, where the resistance is proportional to the strength you are able to apply. This also answers your first question: to be able to apply strength at any df you need technique: more precisely, a sort of neuro-muscular leverage system, slowly developed, that allows you to extract great resistance from the flywheel with a low df.”<br /><br />Hence, DF has an enormous effect on rowing technique. As your technique improves, you can row faster and further at a lower and lower drag. For example (as someone else posted), Dwayne Adams (about 1.9m/100kg) rowed a 5:47.1 2K at a 130 DF. When Dwayne switched from rowing at the maximum DF to rowing at a 120 DF (and training at 110 DF), his 2K time dropped 16 seconds! Dwayne is 40 years old, 6'4", 225 lbs., a former power lifter, and in addition to his 5:47.1 2K did a 2:27 FM – at a low DF.<br /><br />However, as you have noticed, the lower the DF the more efficient your technique must be. “Most of the better rowers on the forum seem to use something in the 105-140 drag factor range.”<br /><br />Here’s something Pete Marston posted on Jun 23 2005, 03:24 AM: “I row everything at 130 drag now, having started out racing at 165, and then used 135 for the past 3 seasons or so. It took a little while to make the change for me from 165 to 135, and my times suffered a bit at the time, but then my distance times started to tumble [he got faster], and of course the short distance times followed.Once you get in the groove at lower drags you can put in a huge amount of power to the handle, and for anything over a flat out sprint it will not affect the splits you can pull, or the rates you pull them at.” <br /><br />Someone else posted: “Remember that the basic concept on the erg in to keep that flywheel spinning as fast as you can. If you have a higher df that won't happen. It'll take some getting use to, but in the end you'll improve dramatically.”<br /><br />A 1:30 split is fast and it will take time and genetics to reach that level; so just work on your technique by getting the DF down, and splits up, and your technique will improve, your back will actually get stronger, and you will be able to row longer, burn more calories, and enjoy the sport even more.<br /><br />On the other hand, with the Model B no matter what you do, it’s weight training (and that isn’t so bad either if your form is spot on).<br /><br />One last observation: RowCanada used the following criteria before the last Olympics for ergo tests on a Model C requiring the use of the following drag factors:<br /><br />Men: 130<br />Women: 120<br />Lightweight Men: 120<br />Lightweight Women: 110<br /><br />Mike<br /><br />

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