Weight Training For Erging

[old] gw1 · Post by **[old] gw1** » December 31st, 2004, 7:20 pm

Yoda, Congrats on retiring! Now you have extra time to even do your reps sllllooooowwwwweeerrrrrrr! All the best to all of you for the new year, whether you lift or not!! Gary

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » December 31st, 2004, 9:03 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Yoda1 @ Jan 1 2005, 11:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> No yelling or whispering-George said so. Yoda  </td></tr></table> Hey you got the problem with yelling - I am just trying to even things up for the quiet guys out there - George

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » December 31st, 2004, 9:07 pm

Gary, I've been Ssssuuuppppeeerrr Ssssllllooowww so long I'm having trouble getting my SPM about 1. George, I said no yelling at me. Yoda

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » December 31st, 2004, 9:10 pm

Ok- so we all agree there is nothing intrinsically wrong with weight training, and we all seem to agree that if time / energy is limited then you are better to spend it rowing (if that is your thing) than lifting wieghts if 'speed' is the issue. Yes / No? So can we discuss what specific exercises to do (apart from core stability) that are going to augment my speed over a 2k, that I cannot do on the erg by manipulating rate of drag factor - both of which obviously are sport specific and bio-mechanically related. regds George Does that make sense

[old] starboardrigged1seat · Post by **[old] starboardrigged1seat** » January 1st, 2005, 4:30 am

Yoda congrats on retiring. To answer your question, if you're looking for a machine which simulates the movement of the rowing stroke on a machine which can give you a weight workout, look at the Dyno. It's a great machine and very very useful. However, that muscle burn you feel 45'' into a super slow rep may be lactic acid -- but it's not training your body for the same sensation you feel around 1000m in a 2k. The sensation you get from SS rep training is your body maximally recruiting muscle fiber, and producing very tiny tears in the muscle. The benefits of SS training are similar to the benefits of using weight pyramids, (progressively heavier weights and lower reps done until either failure or until a "Max" is hit) -- except in a much shorter amount of training time. My wrestling coach, as well as my old ski coach (ahhh, the good ol' days of 6 mile runs in sweat-suits and spending an hour and a half on "chest and tri's") recommended super slow training -- in June and July, the furthest from our competive season as possible. Beyond building muscle mass, I've found that it has very little value for me (a lightweight interested in getting stronger/maintaing mass). I have found the best gains that translated most efficiently into speed were actually on the yoga mat and Fitball. The progress I made found myself almost "unlocking" free speed with a few simple excercises done daily and more time (about 45' to an hour) on weekends. I'm hooked.

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 1st, 2005, 9:13 am

Starboardrigged1seat, Is there another name for "fitball"? I'm not sure I know what that is. The Dyno is a piece I've never worked out on. And I'm not sure anyone I know has one that I could even test. I'll look around. If I understand it correctly, the Dyno works, basicly the same as the ERG, right? The harder a person pushes, the faster the movement? Is that correct? In you post you make reference to your wrestling coach having you do 1-1/2 hours of just chest and tri's. This is what I've been talking about. All of us grew up with coaches telling us the methods of training that work only to find out later in years, that it wasn't the smartest thing to do. I'm sure that your coach didn't say to himself, let's have them do this particular exercise protocol so that his knees need to be replaced when he turns 55 years old. Your coach just didn't know any better. George, I would think that the best exercises to perform would be the one's that simulates the actual performance of rowing. Horizontal Leg Press, Deadlift, Bent over rowing, Narrow grip Reverse Curl, and some type of heavy ab work. I would also think there should be one or two exercises for the chest area as well, but not absolutely necessary. Of course, some stretching on a regular basis. What do you guys think? Time for breakfast. Yoda

[old] Paul Smith · Post by **[old] Paul Smith** » January 1st, 2005, 1:17 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Dec 31 2004, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> You think I failed because I didn't hold the bar for a week? How would I eat and sleep if I did such a thing?  </td></tr></table> John thanks for latching onto a typo in such an adult way. You posted "I could do 18 pullups and 8 pullovers at age 19-20, but found it difficult to hang on the bar for as long as it took me to do the pullups, a minute and a half or so. The same was true with weights. Thus it was/is the effort over time that counts, not the number of reps per se." You said you found it difficult to hang onto the bar for as long as it took to do pullups this 'does' imply a WEAK grip. You then followed this fact with the deffinate conclusion that it 'IS' effort over time that counts. Why the fact that you had a weak grip tells you this I don't know. With regards 'superslow' in general. There are many many ways to train with weights, lots of productive ways to train depending on your aims. If there is one thing I've picked up over the years is that There is NO one way to train super slow advocates though VERY often come accross as though their way IS the ONLY way, the BEST way and trainees who do not follow this style are plain wrong. This appears to be showing up again. A fellow named Hywel works out using a regime about as far away from superslow as you can get, and he doesn't do too bad for doing it so wrong!

[old] Almostflipped · Post by **[old] Almostflipped** » January 1st, 2005, 3:15 pm

Yoda: Starboard is probably talking about a "Swissball"/"Physioball"/"Exerciseball"/"Big red round thing for situps"(as the people in my gym like to call it ). Haven't heard the term fitball much before though. It is a shockingly good and simple item though. Great for core strength. Personally I'm not entirely convinced about weight training, but it seems that if you are going to weight train the best approach would be a periodized one. Max strength or SS lifting is going to make you seriously strong but slow down your force application (which is deadly in rowing) and endurance. At the same time, lifting with a focus on power or endurance will speed up the force curve some and improve endurance; however will do nothing for maximum strength. Tudor Bompa and Ed McNeeley advise using a periodized approach where you cycle through each type of training for 4-6 weeks starting with I believe max strength (which according to Bompa is only effective for 6 weeks after which the body's neurological system adapts to the given stress and diminishing returns kicks in) and endurance in the fall/winter and moving towards max strength/power cycles in the early spring concluding with endurance/power cycles in the racing season (this is geared towards an on-water schedule, adjust if aiming for crash-b's). The basic concept is as StarboardRigged said, to improve your strength which slows the force curve and then speed the force curve back up and learn to use said strength over a greater time. Most people I've spoken with on lifting have always advocated the periodized approach (even if they use pure circuit training, they have peirodized it in a manner) rather than sticking with one type of training through the year. To my mind this makes sense.

[old] starboardrigged1seat · Post by **[old] starboardrigged1seat** » January 1st, 2005, 3:28 pm

Yoda -- Fitball is just a brand name of any number of large rubber balls often seen in health clubs and in gyms. Stability ball, swiss ball, balance ball, -- just make sure they're puncture resistant and fully inflated come up to at least just higher than your knee. You can do great rolling exercises on it to increase stability and flexibility. You can do just about any stomach or lower back exercise on it -- and the instability of the ball shape and the way it wobbles back and forth bring your obliques, lower back, and butt muscles into it. You can do free-weight exercises on it -- one legged squats, push-ups, (with either your feet on the ball or your hands). You can do light dumbell exercises on it -- bench press, sitting dumbell press, curls, one legged leg raisese, etc. PM me if you'd like any more specific ideas. As far as my wrestling coach -- an entire wall full of State Championship, League Championship, and pictures of wrestlers who have gone onto DI schools speak well of his ability of his wrestling coach...I was pointing out the ineffectiveness of that sort of training for rowing. The Dyno works on a similar concept to the erg, but for me seems almost the opposite. The harder you push, imagine the higher the drag factor. It's almost like the old hydrolic machines -- the harder and faster you try to push or pull, the more resistance you encounter. Check out the Dyno section on the concept2 website -- they'd give a much better explaination than I can.

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 1st, 2005, 4:17 pm

Flipped and Starboard, Thanks, I never heard the term "Fitball" used, but the Swiss, Exercise, and Physioball I have. We use them sometimes here in the gym. With the exception of our ERG, that's all my wife uses. I agree with cycling your workouts, if for no other reason than just plain old boredom. I think we've all pretty much agreed on everything, but the protocol for rowing. I'm a novice at rowing and in the short time I've been doing it, I really enjoy it. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how one looks at it, I always try to evalute the actual movement of an individual performing a given athletic act. In other words, the biomechanics of a given movement. Then I try to see if a resistance program can be put together to raise that individuals performance above the point that their natural ability would take them. When I looked at the movement of rowing and after reading some of the posts on different threads where most of the "racers" were stating that they were dying musclularly near the end of their race, I immediately thought of SS. I have had similiar disscussions with recumbent riders that couldn't figure how doing a slow movement with resistance could possibly help them improve their performances. Finally, after a lot of yaking back and forth, a few decided to give SS a go. Guess what, all improved. I am NOT saying that SS is the best and only way to train. What I am saying it is the safest for long time performance. As I see it, when a rower or cyclist gets to the point of no man's land in a race, this is where he gets into trouble. Example; Starboard is in a 5000m race, he's way ahead of his best time as the lactic acid is building up, mentality he will begin to question whether or not he can hang on to break his previous PR. He is not used to that burning sensation in his shoulders and back. His body does not know how to react to that burning. What SS does is teach a person how to hold on and go right through that pain. I have tried to explain why I believe SS is a better way to go than traditional training. Maybe those of us that are willing to continue this discussion should change our approach. I've been trying to sell SS to most of you, but maybe we should reverse this. Perhaps you should try to sell me on Traditional training. What makes the traditional methods superior to SS? Come on, lay it on me. But no yelling Yoda

[old] starboardrigged1seat · Post by **[old] starboardrigged1seat** » January 1st, 2005, 5:13 pm

Yoda -- I've used SS lifting techniques on my own during late summer, or my "Rest, Recouperation, and Relaxation" time of the training year, and I've found great gains in strength in lift-specific strength, muscle tone, and general well-being. Not to mention, the 3 or 4 hours a week that I saved from only doing 2 short sessions per week freed up alot of time (that I used to bike to work, instead of driving 3 days a week). I lift weights for 3 main reasons during the season: A. Injury prevention. Super Slow training is great for this -- providing the same strength benefits to antagonistic muscle groups, as well as strengthening the tendons and ligaments and improving bone density (like any weight lifting routine). B. To have fun. Although SS gives a good "post-workout pump", for me, nothing beats the feeling of cranking out the second rep of my 4th set of squats, knowing full well that there's enough weight on the bar on my back to crush me if I collapse and my spotter screaming and spitting in my face. I've always been afraid to use heavier weights, actually, anything other than light dumbells or machines for Super Slow lifting precisely because lifting to failure has a whole range of danger if not done properly. C. Explosive strength at the start, and a reserve to call on during 10's and 20's in the race. For this, traditional methods reign supreme. What can better simulate the quick power needed for a start (not on the erg or the boat...duh) other than a set of explosive leg presses, bench pulls, and dead-lifts and some plyometrics? D. Muscular endurance. This can be gained through erging and rowing, with a balanced diet of Steady State, AT, and Transportation work, as well as strength specific drills (high drag factor, dragging a bottle, etc.). For this, I suppose that Super Slow and traditional methods are pretty much equal. After all the noise this little dog has made, I suppose my conclusion is...::drum roll::...I don't know. In the end, it's you, and not your weight lifting routine that line up at the start, and there are tons of more important factors than the specifics of your weight lifting routine that determine speed. So I say if you can get a comparable workout in 1/4th the time that I can, and use that time to improve other things (like aerobic base, or to watch rowing videos or read, or go to class, etc), go for it.

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » January 1st, 2005, 8:38 pm

Kudos wrote: <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I attribute a ot of my success not to my extensive weight training or to erging or to rowing, but to staying mentally involved and laser focus no matter what it was. </td></tr></table> Kudos, Lucky you made this connection. I think a lot of athletes miss this chance to really involve themselves mentally in their preparation. Extra return on effort is right there for the taking!

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 1st, 2005, 8:59 pm

Starboard, I have to agree with most of what you have said. Gawd, I kinda forgot about the spitting in my face by a spotter until you mentioned it in your post. I hated it more while benching though. The only thing that I think you missed in your post was the safety factor and the longivity of SS over the traditional methods. Otherwise, you're right. It's what a person enjoys and what they feel they are getting the most from. I do have to stick the needle into some of the folks that contributed to this particular thread, though. Not one person volunteered to switch over and try SS. So be it. This was one of the best threads that I've particapated in. There was a lot of good information being passed back and forth. And best of all George only yelled once. Thanks everyone. I hope we can do this again. It's time for dinner. Yoda

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 1st, 2005, 10:04 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Almostflipped @ Jan 1 2005, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Max strength or SS lifting is going to make you seriously strong but slow down your force application ... At the same time, lifting with a focus on power or endurance will speed up the force curve some ... however will do nothing for maximum strength.  </td></tr></table> Almostflipped, Very nice summary! I'm not really a total advocate of SS per se, as my feeling of building maximum strength is to lift a maximum weight. Albeit, this turns out to be a slow movement, very similar to SS. Now for those over age 60, doing SS would tend to be the superior method of the two, as heavy weights become more and more dangerous at those ages. Also I think with either SS or heavy weights, there is no reason to try and go to maximum and/or break a record every time. Olympic weightlifters, such as Galabin Boevski do rep after rep of near maximum single lifts, and repeat this day after day. The same for top power lifters, such as Judd Biasiotto. Pound for pound, Olympic weightlifters and powerlifters are the strongest athletes in the world. These methods of maximum weights or SS are designed for developing strength. As to meeting the force application on the erg, then specificity reigns supreme, and weight training, body building, etc etc etc are not comparable modes. Additionally, building extra muscle mass and weight that is not useful pound for pound on the erg is not so productive.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 1st, 2005, 10:26 pm

Paul Smith, I felt my grip was fine on the pull ups. What I often thought at the time and still do, is that holding on to the bar STATICALLY was more difficult than when moving, at least I felt it was for me, at that time. This is similar to it being more intense to stand in the sun than it is to exercise and perspire, when one can go on much longer, additionally having the cooling effect of the movement. Also my goal was to do the pull ups, and I didn't enjoy just hanging on the bar. "Can I move?" -- Sundance Kid I did, however, realize that my grip was a vital part of the pull overs, i.e. pulling up and then flipping my body up and then upside down and over the bar, back down and repeating. The time I did 8 I could feel my fingers slipping at 7, and considered stopping there, but wanted to do one more, which I did, hanging on to the bar with the tips of my fingers. I loved to do those and felt that I could work up to doing more of them. But regardless of my grip or anything else, I considered the consequences of a fall, and never did them again.