Who Could Be A Lightweight

[[old] cbrock]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 26 2005, 08:32 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 26 2005, 08:32 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, since many exercise machines do indeed adjust for the weight of the exerciser, it seems evident that the erg monitor could be adjusted to do exactly the same thing with distance and pace (holding watts and calories constant, as they are).<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Given the growing interest in racing on the erg and in using this racing as a diagnostic for rowing performance, I think it would be great if the erg were adjusted (1) to the time of a 1x and (2) for the weight of the rower. Then (in terms of major physical parameters at least) erg races would resemble rows.<br /><br />At the moment, if the weight of the rower is not considered, the relative positioning of the boats on the electronic screen during an erg race is illusory, a falsification. The erg scores have no necessary correlation to the speed of boats. They are just measures of power. <br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ranger I agree with you completely.<br /><br />As Concept2 actually do have a web page specifically dedicated to the weight adjustment factor it is surprising and disappointing that they do not have a program that can take account of your actual weight on the Concept2 machine itself.<br /><br />If they did then it would add much more credibility to the competition side as everybody, lightheavyweights and straight lightweights could row together. Add a lot more interest at the weigh in as well!<br /><br />By their calculation, a 1k differential in weight equals about 2 seconds over a 2k race on the water.<br /><br />Some of our heavyweight champions would not be competitive against the better lightweights at the moment.<br /><br />Hope you had a good Xmas.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Chris<br />

[[old] george nz]

You are making the assumption that most people who row on an erg want to simulate a boat - h*** no. If I wanted to row a boat I would, if you want to row a boat your welcome.<br /><br />Some of us are just happy to sit on a machine and see how much power we can generate for however long in a form that takes some technical competency.<br /><br />I cant see why people want to keep turning the erg into something that simulates a boat. If you add a dimension for weight are we going to do away with weight classes? What about adding a factor for age, height, technical competancy and sex etc. As it stands now everyone is measure exactly the same and thats fine. If you start making adjustments you are just going to create an argument over what that adjustment should be.<br /><br />George

[[old] george nz]

<!--QuoteBegin-cbrock+Dec 26 2005, 02:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(cbrock @ Dec 26 2005, 02:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If they did then it would add much more credibility to the competition side as everybody, lightheavyweights and straight lightweights could row together. Add a lot more interest at the weigh in as well!<br /><br />By their calculation, a 1k differential in weight equals about 2 seconds over a 2k race on the water.<br /><br />Some of our heavyweight champions would not be competitive against the better lightweights at the moment.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Chris<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />So do you agree with the assesment, how was it arrived at, what evidence is there of it?<br /><br />You will do away with weight classes on this basis?<br /><br />So someone who is 80kg would have to give someone who is 70kg a 20sec advantage over 2k, thats dreaming in my opiniom.<br /><br />George

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 25 2005, 05:34 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 25 2005, 05:34 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you add a dimension for weight are we going to do away with weight classes? [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Depending on how precise it is, YES!<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 25 2005, 05:34 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 25 2005, 05:34 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you start making adjustments you are just going to create an argument over what that adjustment should be.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think the adjustment can be made to be very precise and am sure that, with the input of others, that I could come to a very precise calculation of it.<br /><br />Regarding C2's web page about weight adjustments, I haven't seen it but 2 seconds per 1 kilo sounds a lot. The difference between the lightweight and heavy records is 25.6 seconds. A heavy would probably need to weigh at least 220 pounds, so this is a weight difference of 55 pounds. which is 25 kilograms. Based on this, the increments would be roughly 1 second per kilogram. However this would need to be calculated more precisely.

[[old] cbrock]

<br />So do you agree with the assesment, how was it arrived at, what evidence is there of it?<br /><br />You will do away with weight classes on this basis?<br /><br />So someone who is 80kg would have to give someone who is 70kg a 20sec advantage over 2k, thats dreaming in my opiniom.<br /><br />George <br />[/quote]<br /><br />George go to the Australian site. Concept2.com.au and look under events.<br /><br />Unfortunately my math's was wrong and John is right.<br /><br />Under this formula a 7.00 2k performance is rated as follows:<br /><br />70k person equals 6.11.00<br />80k person equals 6.22.10<br /><br />The article says that as the erg does not penalise the heavier rower because of the drag factor a heavier rower may appear to have more potential than they really have when it is their time to get into the boat.<br /><br />Based on the above I think this is a fair relationship.<br /><br />A 90k female (7.10) against a 65k female (7.25).<br /><br />Who is the better rower George?.<br /><br />Hope you had a good Xmas.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Chris<br /><br />

[[old] george nz]

Chris as I said I have a problem with the fact that people are trying to get the erg to replicate a boat / boat racing. <br /><br />I know I am biased in that I have no interest in rowing in a boat at all and while I know there are a number of people on these forum who do row on the water, I am guessing, and it is just a guess that they are in the minority.<br /><br />When it comes to racing I am well aware that most of the top competitors are also top flight water rowers I wonder what percentage of actual participants are also water rowers (competitively). "John can you help with that one?"<br /><br />I kinda like the idea that indoor rowing is a different sport to OTW rowing, I for one would not like it to become just an extension of OTW rowing / racing.<br /><br />As to weight adjustment, I agree that there is probably a way of finding an amicable adjustment (if you really want to ) - but I would think to do it properly you would want to do a very broad sampling of indoor and outdoor people. top athletes and participants, what about the effect of age on the adjustment etc. I dont think you could just make a comparison on the top 2 or 3 of an age group (you could but not necessarily a broad enough sample)<br /><br />George<br /><br />ps Interesting discussion point tho<br /><br />pps Happier to give away 1 sec per kg than 2 secs

[[old] rspenger]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 25 2005, 06:34 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 25 2005, 06:34 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I cant see why people want to keep turning the erg into something that simulates a boat.<br />George <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />George,<br /><br />That was the whole purpose of designing the erg in the first place. It was strictly for OTW rowers who wanted a closely similar exercise when they couldn't go out on the water. Now it seems to have developed a life of its own and developed into a sort of new sport. It is still a strange one to me. How many others sports are dependent on an apparatus that is made by just one company? The only thing that comes to mind is certain class races in sailboats, but it is usually some national or international yachting association that makes the rules, not the boat manufacturer. As far as I know, the whole business of erg competition started with the CRASH-Bs by Boston area rowers who were so bored with their winter training that they decided to spice it up with a little competition. It was supposed to be a fun thing to liven up the winter a bit. Now it seems to have developed into a serious international competition and, with the CRASH-B apparently evolving into the WIRC, I would say that a lot of the fun has gone out of it. Perhaps the traditional hammer may eventually be replaced by an ornate cup - at least for the open classes.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Bob S.<br />

[[old] george nz]

<!--QuoteBegin-cbrock+Dec 26 2005, 03:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(cbrock @ Dec 26 2005, 03:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />A 90k female (7.10) against a 65k female (7.25).<br /><br />Who is the better rower George?.<br />Regards,<br />Chris<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Chris I dont know who is a better rower or athlete but I do know that the heavier women was faster. <br /><br />For all I know the lighter woman may be a 23 year old Uni student training 10 sessions a weeks and been an endurance athlete since her early teens. The heavier woman may be a 43 year old mother of 3 who gets to the gym 4 mornings a week for an hour at time then has to go home, get the kids up, make the school lunches and then go to work herself before coming home, doing all the other things that need do etc etc.<br /><br />You tell me whose effort is more commnedable on an 'ERG' because I dont see any boats in the gym <br /><br />Rowing by definition:<br /><br />Main Entry: <b>Row</b><br />Pronunciation: 'rO<br />Function: verb<br />Etymology: Middle English, from Old English rOwan; akin to Middle High German rüejen to row, Latin remus oar<br />intransitive senses<br /><b>1 : to propel a boat by means of oars<br />2 : to move by or as if by the propulsion of oars</b><br />transitive senses<br />1 a : to propel with or as if with oars b : to be equipped with (a specified number of oars) c (1) : to participate in (a rowing match) (2) : to compete against in rowing (3) : to pull (an oar) in a crew<br />2 : to transport in an oar-propelled boat<br /><br /><br />What we do on the erg is not rowing it is just the easiest way to define it <br /><br />George<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 25 2005, 06:45 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 25 2005, 06:45 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would think to do it properly you would want to do a very broad sampling of indoor and outdoor people. top athletes and participants, what about the effect of age on the adjustment etc.  </td></tr></table><br /><br />This would be easy to accomplish based only on the open world records.<br /><br />Currently these are 6:02.6 and 5:37.0 for men.<br /><br />A similar curve can be made from their own records for the women.<br /><br />There doesn't need to be any adjustment for age, other than the age groups already established.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-rspenger+Dec 25 2005, 06:48 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rspenger @ Dec 25 2005, 06:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps the traditional hammer may eventually be replaced by an ornate cup [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />That would be an improvement.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 25 2005, 06:58 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 25 2005, 06:58 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2 : to move by or as if by the propulsion of oars[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sounds like what we do when rowing on an erg.<br /><br />Also, some boats now rowed as we do on the C2, rather than with the use of oars.<br />

[[old] Roland Baltutis]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 25 2005, 09:45 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 25 2005, 09:45 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Chris as I said I have a problem with the fact that people are trying to get the erg to replicate a boat / boat racing.  <br /><br />I know I am biased in that I have no interest in rowing in a boat at all and while I know there are a number of people on these forum who do row on the water, I am guessing, and it is just a guess that they are in the minority.<br /><br />When it comes to racing I am well aware that most of the top competitors are also top flight water rowers I wonder what percentage of actual participants are also water rowers (competitively).  "John can you help with that one?"<br /><br />I kinda like the idea that indoor rowing is a different sport to OTW rowing, I for one would not like it to become just an extension of OTW rowing / racing.<br /><br /><br /><br />George<br /><br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />George,<br /> As I travel in both the on water and indoor rowing circles I can give you some insight into the connection between the two.<br /><br />Although the C2 erg was developed primarily for on water rowers it is now servicing a much broader community than just on water rowers. Here's a quote from the C2 erg distributor in Australia (who is also a local boat builder):<br /><br />"You know the ergo users around the country far exceed the number of on water rowers and one of my aims is to get as many of those ergo users out onto the water as possible"<br /><br />At the Aust. Indoor Rowing Champs, from the 600 to 700 odd entries about 80% were school kids from private schools with rowing programs. The mature age competitors were by far a minority. Furthermore, the 18-30 year age groups were almost entirely on water rowers however most of the National and State on water rowers were absent.<br /><br />In the over 30 age groups no more than 40% would have been on water rowers. I believe the above pattern also follows in major international indoor races however with more gym users in the 18-30 group. There is still a huge number of erg users out there that don't row on water nor bother with entering indoor races or participating in forums or joining indoor rowing clubs.<br /><br />Indoor rowing is slowly becoming a separate sport dominated and run by one manufacturer. It still relies on water rowers to boost it's numbers but the interesting thing is that most on water rowers hate erging and only a small percentage of them race on the erg or log meters on the C2 website. So George you don't have to worry about on water rowers taking over the sport of indoor rowing. Most of them prefer to be in a boat anyway because the fixed flywheel erg is still too far removed from the feeling of rowing in a boat.<br /><br /><br />Rockin Roland<br />

[[old] george nz]

Tks Roland for the info. As you say most water rowers dont like th erg anyway and hence only use it under duress <br /><br />I think if there are going to be changes to the way the monitor 'rewards' effort there would need to be careful consideration to 'why'. I doubt (but may be wrong) that changing it to be more like a boat is not going to encourage more OTW rowers to compete or use it on a regular basis if they dont have to.<br /><br />Again thanks for the perspective.<br /><br />George<br /><br />ps I know that from the few events I have competed in, as you say at the Nationals there were a lot of good young people from 'rowing' programmes, but they dont tend to turn up for any other Indoor comp during the year.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 25 2005, 08:39 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 25 2005, 08:39 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, The Erg pace is directly tied to what the performance of a boat would be, if that boat were a M4-. I.e. A M2- would be slower than the Erg Paces and a M8+ would be faster.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Exactly not, Paul.<br /><br />The erg monitor is tied to the performance of an imaginary M4- that discounts the effort needed to carry the weight of the rower/rowers in that M4- by changing that actual figure to some imaginary norm.<br /><br />A team of four 300 lb. rowers that generates X watts on the erg gets the same score as a team of four 150 lb. rowers that generates X watts on the erg. But in the water, the M4- with the four 150 lb. rowers beats the the M4- with the four 300 lbs. rowers going away.<br /><br />BTW, since many exercise machines do indeed adjust for the weight of the exerciser, it seems evident that the erg monitor could be adjusted to do exactly the same thing with distance and pace (holding watts and calories constant, as they are).<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />There was a short time where an actual "worlds best time" was held by the LM4-, but that did not last long. I suspect that the average Erg Score for the lwts was considerably slower than the hwts in the current M4- that has the WBT. The hwts must produce more power to move a boat at the same speed as the lwts, so this is more or less "self adjusting" in boats, as long as everyone rows with excellent technique. There are cases where the Ergo scores do not seem to tell the story of what happens in boats, but that could simply be a lack of motivation for the Rower to produce a true "maximal" effort on the Erg.<br /><br />Still, this is "Indoor Rowing Machine Racing", and no matter how you slice it a 6:01 is slower than a 5:59, regardless of who did the rowing, their weight, gender, and age is irrelevant.<br /><br />Adjustments mean nothing in the Indoor Rowing world, you either finish faster than your competition or you don't.<br /><br />Is a WR for the Open class equal to the WR for a "qualified" class? Perhaps in esteem, however absolutely not in performance, to say otherwise would be ridiculous. The "Fastest time in the world" is merely an indicator of potential improvement possibility, they generally don't stand for too long, though this varies from category to category. When one is in place for over 20 years, then we might start thinking there could be some "limit" but even that would be a bit speculative, since the data are relatively limited in scope.<br />