Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 16 2005, 03:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 16 2005, 03:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 16 2005, 02:46 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 16 2005, 02:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The PM updates the stats for the stroke after Drive completion, so though you can not see an explicit indicator of a drive being taken, it is happening.  Have faith! </td></tr></table><br />I see where the pm2 measures the flywheel movement, but not the movements of the body.<br /><br />Can you tell me where the pm2 shows this display? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Do you move the flywheel witout body movement? That could explain a few things. <br /><br />The handle is connected to the flywheel.<br />The body is connected to the handle.<br />Thus, the body is connected to the flywheel.<br /><br />The flywheel acceleration is directly connected to the body movement on the drive. (for most of us)<br /><br />Anything that is not drive, is recovery.<br /><br />Once you are done moving the Handle with enough force to either accelerate or maintain the current velocity of the flywheel the PM* considers the drive over and updates the display.<br /><br />Thus, you can see the end of your Drive each stroke.<br /><br />* The PM3 updates on the next 0.5sec update interval after the end of the drive, which can seem like a long time if you are used to the PM2's more immediate display updating.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 16 2005, 04:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 16 2005, 04:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anything that is not drive, is recovery. </td></tr></table><br />Anything that is not recovery, is the drive.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once you are done moving the Handle with enough force to either accelerate or maintain the current velocity of the flywheel the PM* considers the drive over and updates the display.[right] </td></tr></table><br />Well then that's an inefficiency of the monitor, as you can obviously be slowing the drive and yet still driving, and still moving backwards with the handle..<br /><br />Don't try to overthink this, Paul.<br /><br />If you're not moving the handle forward and you have reversed the direction of the movement, then you're moving it backwards and that is part of the drive.

[[old] ranger]

1:37 @ 31 spm (12.4 SPI, 10MPS, 105 df.) is now coming as smooth as silk. Perfectly semicircular force curve--over and over. Delighted with this.<br /><br />Time to do a zillion 500s to lock in the new stroke at this TR pace.<br /><br />Racing rhythm! <br /><br />It is only one step to 1:34 @ 32 spm (13.1 SPI, 10MPS), the limits of my potential--and technically, this is now coming nicely, too, with the force curve still smooth and semicircular.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 16 2005, 05:39 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 16 2005, 05:39 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't try to overthink this, Paul. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No worries, ErgMonitor is a clear indication of efficient thinking on the matter.<br />You seem to assume that since you do not understand a subject, that others are "overthinking" when attempting to help you, it's all relative I suppose.<br /><br />Now, if you would merely start thinking.<br />

[[old] DougB]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once you are done moving the Handle with enough force to either accelerate or maintain the current velocity of the flywheel the PM* considers the drive over and updates the display. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul - is this how ErgMonitor calculates the drive length, also? (And thus drive:recovery ratio?) If so, why wouldn't pulling with less force, such as towards the end of the drive with back and arms, be considered part of the drive?<br /><br />One reason I ask is because recently I've been watching the drive lengths for various strokes, and they vary by 3-5 cm when I could swear I'm taking the same stroke each time. But I was thinking about the starting and ending points of the drive, not where the acceleration ends. Maybe this now explains what I've been seeing.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-DougB+Dec 17 2005, 07:17 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DougB @ Dec 17 2005, 07:17 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once you are done moving the Handle with enough force to either accelerate or maintain the current velocity of the flywheel the PM* considers the drive over and updates the display. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul - is this how ErgMonitor calculates the drive length, also? (And thus drive:recovery ratio?) If so, why wouldn't pulling with less force, such as towards the end of the drive with back and arms, be considered part of the drive?<br /><br />One reason I ask is because recently I've been watching the drive lengths for various strokes, and they vary by 3-5 cm when I could swear I'm taking the same stroke each time. But I was thinking about the starting and ending points of the drive, not where the acceleration ends. Maybe this now explains what I've been seeing. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />When the flywheel has been determined to be "coasting" (Torque reaches zero) is when the Drive ends. The 3-5cm variation is an artifact of the available resolution with only 3 data points per revolution. We're working on a way to do some smoothing of the drive endpoint. I agree that you are probably taking consistent drive lengths, and that is most likely reflected best in the Average Stroke Length.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

PaulS,<br /><br />The EG only shows fan movement, not drive movement.<br /><br />You are wrong again but keep trying.<br /><br /><br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 06:39 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 06:39 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ErgMonitor is a clear indication of efficient thinking on the matter.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 07:47 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 07:47 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the flywheel has been determined to be "coasting" (Torque reaches zero) is when the Drive ends.  The 3-5cm variation is an artifact of the available resolution with only 3 data points per revolution.  We're working on a way to do some smoothing of the drive endpoint.  I agree that you are probably taking consistent drive lengths, and that is most likely reflected best in the Average Stroke Length.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />It only took 68 minutes for you to contradict yourself.<br /><br />Couldn't you have done it in the same message, as usual? <br /><br />Averaging the stroke lengths after chopping would only give you a chopped up average, not a true one.<br /><br />The EG doesn't measure the drive, but only a portion of it.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 17 2005, 01:12 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 17 2005, 01:12 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is only one step to 1:34 @ 32 spm (13.1 SPI, 10MPS), the limits of my potential[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Wow, now 32 spm is the limit of your potential. <br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 17 2005, 09:22 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 17 2005, 09:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 06:39 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 06:39 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ErgMonitor is a clear indication of efficient thinking on the matter.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 07:47 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 07:47 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the flywheel has been determined to be "coasting" (Torque reaches zero) is when the Drive ends.  The 3-5cm variation is an artifact of the available resolution with only 3 data points per revolution.  We're working on a way to do some smoothing of the drive endpoint.  I agree that you are probably taking consistent drive lengths, and that is most likely reflected best in the Average Stroke Length.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />It only took 68 minutes for you to contradict yourself.<br /><br />Couldn't you have done it in the same message, as usual? <br /><br />Averaging the stroke lengths after chopping would only give you a chopped up average, not a true one.<br /><br />The EG doesn't measure the drive, but only a portion of it. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No contradictions here John, just the truth.<br /><br />I'm sure with your expertise in statistics that you really do understand the concept of an average, even though you are denying it at this time.<br /><br />If you can not see the connection between Flywheel, handle, and body as it relates to the drive after the explanations offered, there is nothing else that can help you.<br /><br />I have no idea what "EG" is, so commenting on it is impossible at this time.<br /><br />Why is it that you persist at decreasing your credibility by insulting people who have well established records for accuracy? Surely it can not be a life coaching strategy. Is it something like AA where you must hit rock bottom before beginning to recover. Well, consider this an intervention, you have hit rock bottom on the credibility scale, it's time to recover. It really would be sad to see you completely burn out, as you have been a source of unending entertainment, in spite of your rather strange approach to everything.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 17 2005, 09:22 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 17 2005, 09:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Averaging the stroke lengths after chopping would only give you a chopped up average, not a true one.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 10:09 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 10:09 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sure with your expertise in statistics that you really do understand the concept of an average, even though you are denying it at this time.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />PaulS,<br /><br />Note in my message I noted you have come up with an "average", so there is nothing that was denied. <br /><br />However the average from the EM is a chopped up one and thus has no relation to the actual length of the drive.<br /><br />To determine the actual drive length, see my previous messages.

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 06:09 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 06:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 17 2005, 09:22 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 17 2005, 09:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 06:39 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 06:39 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ErgMonitor is a clear indication of efficient thinking on the matter.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 07:47 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 07:47 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the flywheel has been determined to be "coasting" (Torque reaches zero) is when the Drive ends.  The 3-5cm variation is an artifact of the available resolution with only 3 data points per revolution.  We're working on a way to do some smoothing of the drive endpoint.  I agree that you are probably taking consistent drive lengths, and that is most likely reflected best in the Average Stroke Length.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />It only took 68 minutes for you to contradict yourself.<br /><br />Couldn't you have done it in the same message, as usual? <br /><br />Averaging the stroke lengths after chopping would only give you a chopped up average, not a true one.<br /><br />The EG doesn't measure the drive, but only a portion of it. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No contradictions here John, just the truth.<br /><br />I'm sure with your expertise in statistics that you really do understand the concept of an average, even though you are denying it at this time.<br /><br />If you can not see the connection between Flywheel, handle, and body as it relates to the drive after the explanations offered, there is nothing else that can help you.<br /><br />I have no idea what "EG" is, so commenting on it is impossible at this time.<br /><br />Why is it that you persist at decreasing your credibility by insulting people who have well established records for accuracy? Surely it can not be a life coaching strategy. Is it something like AA where you must hit rock bottom before beginning to recover. Well, consider this an intervention, you have hit rock bottom on the credibility scale, it's time to recover. It really would be sad to see you completely burn out, as you have been a source of unending entertainment, in spite of your rather strange approach to everything. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Paul, I think it is time to get John a new toy. The effect of the slides that were bought for him lasted a good 2 months!<br /><br />I am suggesting that we gather our collective purchase power, once again, to give him a copy of the ErgMonitor! <br /><br />What do you think?<br /><br />Cheers!<br /><br />Francois<br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Dec 17 2005, 10:29 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Dec 17 2005, 10:29 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 06:09 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 06:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 17 2005, 09:22 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 17 2005, 09:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 06:39 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 06:39 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ErgMonitor is a clear indication of efficient thinking on the matter.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 07:47 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 07:47 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the flywheel has been determined to be "coasting" (Torque reaches zero) is when the Drive ends.  The 3-5cm variation is an artifact of the available resolution with only 3 data points per revolution.  We're working on a way to do some smoothing of the drive endpoint.  I agree that you are probably taking consistent drive lengths, and that is most likely reflected best in the Average Stroke Length.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />It only took 68 minutes for you to contradict yourself.<br /><br />Couldn't you have done it in the same message, as usual? <br /><br />Averaging the stroke lengths after chopping would only give you a chopped up average, not a true one.<br /><br />The EG doesn't measure the drive, but only a portion of it. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No contradictions here John, just the truth.<br /><br />I'm sure with your expertise in statistics that you really do understand the concept of an average, even though you are denying it at this time.<br /><br />If you can not see the connection between Flywheel, handle, and body as it relates to the drive after the explanations offered, there is nothing else that can help you.<br /><br />I have no idea what "EG" is, so commenting on it is impossible at this time.<br /><br />Why is it that you persist at decreasing your credibility by insulting people who have well established records for accuracy? Surely it can not be a life coaching strategy. Is it something like AA where you must hit rock bottom before beginning to recover. Well, consider this an intervention, you have hit rock bottom on the credibility scale, it's time to recover. It really would be sad to see you completely burn out, as you have been a source of unending entertainment, in spite of your rather strange approach to everything. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Paul, I think it is time to get John a new toy. The effect of the slides that were bought for him lasted a good 2 months!<br /><br />I am suggesting that we gather our collective purchase power, once again, to give him a copy of the ErgMonitor! <br /><br />What do you think?<br /><br />Cheers!<br /><br />Francois <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />I think he could give it a try for free if he would like, we offer 30 day trials for everyone. Of course, putting up with his sillines that would be sure to ensue may not be worth it. <br /><br />I really do wish that John would fill us in on the experience with Slides, or if he's not going to use them to find a place where they would be put to use.

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 17 2005, 07:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 17 2005, 07:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I really do wish that John would fill us in on the experience with Slides, or if he's not going to use them to find a place where they would be put to use. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />John, are you listening?<br /><br />How much faster are you on the slides? Has your PATT Percentages (the most accurate way to compare times across age, weight class, gender and shoe size) improved?

[[old] John Rupp]

Francois,<br /><br />I did post about my first experiments on the slides.<br /><br />A session of 10x 1:00 with 15s rests was 1.5 to 2 seconds faster on the slides, than when I did them the next day on the erg.<br /><br />Now that the HC is over, I am planning to do more repetitions again, my first session in the next few days.<br /><br />Then I will repeat the session on the slides, alternating it perhaps twice a week total and report the results.<br /><br />Cheers.