10mps: Race Pace, Stroking Power, And Ratio

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mike Niezgoda+Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Niezgoda @ Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What portion of the drive is missing in ErgMonitor? </td></tr></table><br /><!--QuoteBegin-Mike Niezgoda+Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Niezgoda @ Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know that the drive starts when the flywheel stops slowing down (end of the recovery) and the drive ends when the flywheel starts to slow down </td></tr></table><br />You just answered your own question.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-Mike Niezgoda+Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Niezgoda @ Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(after the finish). </td></tr></table><br />Whoops! You tried to slip that in but you can't have it both ways.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-Mike Niezgoda+Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Niezgoda @ Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What distances are short in ErgMonitor? </td></tr></table><br />The distance covered by the handle, i.e. the drive length.

[[old] Mike Niezgoda]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 26 2005, 09:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 26 2005, 09:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Mike Niezgoda+Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Niezgoda @ Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What portion of the drive is missing in ErgMonitor?[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 16 2005, 04:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 16 2005, 04:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once you are done moving the Handle with enough force to either accelerate or maintain the current velocity of the flywheel the PM [and ErgMonitor] considers the drive over and updates the display.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ergmonitor only measure the portion of the drive where the handle speed is increasing or staying the same.<br /><br />EM does not measure the portion of the drive where the handle speed is slowing down.<br /><br />If the highest speed of the handle is midpoint through the drive, then EM will stop any measurement of drive length past the midpoint of the drive.<br /><br />Thus it is not possible for ErgMonitor to give an accurate measure of the length of the drive. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Your first sentence comes close to being correct. ErgMonitor starts the drive when the flywheel stops slowing down (handle speed matches the flywheel speed) and ends the drive when the flywheel starts slowing down (flywheel starts freewheeling). This <i>does</i> include the portion of the drive where the handle is slowing down to the speed of the flywheel.<br /><br />So, you want credit for drive distance where you are moving the handle, but not applying enough force to the handle to maintain the speed of the flywheel? I'm sorry, but what kind of dumba** measurement of drive would that be?<br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 26 2005, 01:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 26 2005, 01:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Mike Niezgoda+Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Niezgoda @ Dec 26 2005, 11:42 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What portion of the drive is missing in ErgMonitor?[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 16 2005, 04:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 16 2005, 04:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once you are done moving the Handle with enough force to either accelerate or maintain the current velocity of the flywheel the PM [and ErgMonitor] considers the drive over and updates the display.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ergmonitor only measure the portion of the drive where the handle speed is increasing or staying the same.<br /><br />EM does not measure the portion of the drive where the handle speed is slowing down.<br /><br />If the highest speed of the handle is midpoint through the drive, then EM will stop any measurement of drive length past the midpoint of the drive.<br /><br />Thus it is not possible for ErgMonitor to give an accurate measure of the length of the drive. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />A "Stroke" is defined differently between the PM and ErgMonitor.<br />ErgMonitor Stroke = Drive + Recovery (Updates pace at the catch)<br />PM Stroke = Recovery + Drive (Updates pace at the release)<br /><br />Subtle difference, but important.<br /><br />John,<br />If, during the drive, the handle slows, the flywheel is also slowing (they are linked by a chain) and the Drive is over by definition. i.e. There is no more energy being input that can be measured by the flywheel.<br /><br />You have likely never used, or even seen ErgMonitor in use, so your self-proclaimed knowlege regarding it is somewhat suspect.<br /><br />Just to be clear for folks joining this little discussion, MikeN and myself are the designers and developers of ErgMonitor. John, on the other hand, is someone who cares nothing about facts, but regardless continues to blather incoherently.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mike Niezgoda+Dec 26 2005, 01:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Niezgoda @ Dec 26 2005, 01:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ErgMonitor ... ends the drive when the flywheel starts slowing down (flywheel starts freewheeling).  </td></tr></table><br />When it starts slowing down or when it starts freewheeling?<br /><br />Which one?<br /><br />Are you trying to say these are the same?<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This <i>does</i>  include the portion of the drive where the handle is slowing down to the speed of the flywheel. </td></tr></table><br />Are you saying the handle was going faster than the speed of the flywheel? If so, that sounds like quite a trick, since they are connected by a chain.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, you want credit for drive distance where you are moving the handle, but not applying enough force to the handle to maintain the speed of the flywheel? </td></tr></table><br />Moving the handle in the direction of the drive is part of the drive.<br /><br />It is not part of recovery. <br /><br />Let's say the revolutions of the flywheel, based on 100 maximum and 0 minimum, go something like this.<br /><br />0 50 80 95 99 100 100 100 99 99 98 98 97 96 95 <b>90</b> 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0 50 80 etc<br /><br />From this, the start of the drive is rather obvious but the start of recovery isn't. You could could the end of the drive as where peak revolutions cease to be maintained which would be when it goes to 99. However the drive is continuing past that point to where the revolutions decrease in an even manner at 90, and on through the actual recovery.<br /><br />By your method you are missing a significant portion of the drive, and mistakenly counting it as part of recovery, which it most obviously is not.

[[old] Coach Gus]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 26 2005, 01:59 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 26 2005, 01:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />John,<br /><br />You have likely never used, or even seen ErgMonitor in use, so your self-proclaimed knowlege regarding it is somewhat suspect.<br /><br />Just to be clear for folks joining this little discussion, MikeN and myself are the designers and developers of ErgMonitor.  John, on the other hand, is someone who cares nothing about facts, but regardless continues to blather incoherently.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />It seems there is a simple answer here. Just like you and some other generous (foolish?) people did for John regarding the slides you gave him, just give him a free copy of ErgMonitor. He can test it and use it as thoroughly as he did the slides. <br /><br />Gus

[[old] Citroen]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 26 2005, 04:32 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 26 2005, 04:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Watts = Power <i>=</i> The <b>Pace</b> displayed on the monitor. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, watts does <b>NOT </b>equal pace.<br /><br />The formula used by C2 is: power (watts) = 2.8/(pace)^3

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 26 2005, 05:59 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 26 2005, 05:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have likely never used, or even seen ErgMonitor in use, so your self-proclaimed knowlege regarding it is somewhat suspect.<br /><br />Just to be clear for folks joining this little discussion, MikeN and myself are the designers and developers of ErgMonitor.  John, on the other hand, is someone who cares nothing about facts, but regardless continues to blather incoherently.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />This IS the most important part of this post. John does, regularly, make statements he purports to be FACT, when they are just his opinion. New readers, or casual readers, should make a note of this when seeking REAL advice on rowing, rowing technique, etc.<br /><br />John is, affectionately, our forum "fool" or "jester" ... as one would have had in the courts of kings during the Middle Ages.

[[old] John Rupp]

Citroen,<br /><br />You are very funny.<br /><br />First you say there is no relationship between watts and pace and then you provide the formula that shows that there is.<br /><br />Which is it. <br /><br />

[[old] Citroen]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 26 2005, 10:17 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 26 2005, 10:17 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Citroen,<br /><br />You are very funny.<br /><br />First you say there is no relationship between watts and pace and then you provide the formula that shows that there is.<br /><br />Which is it.      <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No I'm saying they are NOT EQUAL. There's a CUBE in the equation. <br />You <b>always</b> fail to state things precisely. That p155es me off.

[[old] John Rupp]

Mark,<br /><br />Even after Mike Caviston called you an idiot for doing so, you continue to follow his program.<br /><br />Perhaps you thought he was jesting with you. <br /><br />Or perhaps you are Mike Caviston's court jester. I can imagine him talking with his buddies wherever about how he repeats his instructions so many times and you still "don't get it". What is so difficult anyway. Why don't you go and ask him another question about it eh Mark. Geesh isn't about time you got the point. <br /><br />The only fool I see on this thread is you.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Dec 26 2005, 02:20 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Dec 26 2005, 02:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No I'm saying they are NOT EQUAL. [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />You are mistaken.<br /><br />There is a definite relationship between Watts, Power, and Pace.<br /><br />Power produced is shown as Watts and calculated to be shown as the Pace on the monitor.<br /><br />First you said there is no relationship then you provided a formula that shows that there is!<br /><br />Which is it? You still haven't answered my question! <br />

[[old] John Rupp]

I just looked up the definitions of "equal", and only 1 out of 9 even mentioned the word "identical". <br /><br />1. Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.<br />2. Mathematics. Being the same or identical to in value.<br />3.1. Having the same privileges, status, or rights: equal before the law.<br />3.2. Being the same for all members of a group: gave every player an equal chance to win.<br />4.1. Having the requisite qualities, such as strength or ability, for a task or situation: “Elizabeth found herself quite equal to the scene” (Jane Austen).<br />4.2. Adequate in extent, amount, or degree.<br />5. Impartial; just; equitable.<br />6. Tranquil; equable.<br />7. Showing or having no variance in proportion, structure, or appearance.<br /><br />Pace, Power, and Watts are certainly equal and are related very closely together.<br /><br />Watts and Power have a very precise mathematical relationship.<br /><br />For all intents and purposes on the erg, they are EQUAL.

[[old] Citroen]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 26 2005, 10:25 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 26 2005, 10:25 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Dec 26 2005, 02:20 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Dec 26 2005, 02:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No I'm saying they are NOT EQUAL. [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />You are mistaken.<br /><br />There is a definite relationship between Watts, Power, and Pace.<br /><br />Power produced is shown as Watts and calculated to be shown as the Pace on the monitor.<br /><br />First you said there is no relationship then you provided a formula that shows that there is!<br /><br />Which is it? You still haven't answered my question! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You would never make it as a mathematician. <b>You are too imprecise.</b><br /><br />Your post had <i>"WATTS = PACE"</i>.<br /><br />WATTS doesn't <b>directly</b> equal pace; there is a <u>reciprocal third power</u>. <br /><br />Make PRECISION your 2006 resolution. You may gain some respect on this forum if you stop spouting the normal crap and start providing <u>precise</u> information that is relevant and pertinent to the thread. You should also resolve to stop pushing threads off topic as that loses respect. <br /><br />You would avoid being the target of threads like:<br /><a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3412' target='_blank'>http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... 412</a><br />if you stopped p155ing off everyone else on this and the UK forum.

[[old] John Rupp]

Some rowers even measure their power by rowing with Watts instead of Pace.<br /><br />However it still comes out to the same thing.<br /><br />Because Power = Watts = Pace.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Dec 26 2005, 02:34 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Dec 26 2005, 02:34 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You would never make it as a mathematician. <b>You are too imprecise.</b>[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />I am happier having an open mind. <br />