Catch And Resistance

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » September 30th, 2004, 4:22 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Sep 29 2004, 06:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>John says: "Very tall rowers with long torsos and long arms, and greater weight, can row higher ratios at 10 mps and less, than can lighter shorter rowers, whereas lightweights tend more to rowing at 8 mps and less." </td></tr></table> Eskild Ebbesen is a 6'2 lightweight weighing 158 pounds. If he was 6'2 and 230 pounds, or 6'6 and 220 pounds, then he might very well row at 9.7 or 10.1 mps and a 5:37 for the 2k.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » September 30th, 2004, 4:25 pm

Graham Watt rowed his recent 50+ lightweight World Record of 6:25.8 at 37-39 spm, which at 38 spm is 8.18 meters per stroke. Dwayne Adams rowed his 40+ heavyweight World Record of 5:47.1 at 34-36 spm, which at 35 spm is 9.87 mps.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » September 30th, 2004, 4:31 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (travisshue @ Sep 30 2004, 10:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Maybe you guys could share your heart rates etc.. So I can see where I stand, my waking heart rate is 60-65 and sitting around its about 90. Max is 193. Theoretical max is 196. Im 24.  </td></tr></table> Max and min HR's are 174 and 43. Heart rate for 21k at 2:20 pace is 103-105. Heart rate for a 5k at 2:03 (increasing pace) was 132 .. 68% of HRR Heart rate for a 5k at 1:59 (increasing pace) was 144 .. 77% of HRR I don't check my heart rate very often though.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 30th, 2004, 5:04 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Sep 30 2004, 08:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Pavel Shurmei rowed 9.7 mps at the 2004 Crash B's and Eskild Ebbesen rowed at 8 mps. You are saying they should both train at 10 mps. This again points out the fallacy in your thinking. Surely if Ebbesen "should" train at 10 mps, to "fix" his ratio, then Shurmei should train at 12.1 mps! However, long time WORLD RECORD HOLDER Eskild Ebbesen's ratio is already "fixed"! This is apparent because, even though Shurmei's rate at the Crash B's was 35 spm and Ebbesen's was 41.3, they both had the SAME EXACT RATIO of 43.5% (drive % of stroke). Thus changing Ebbesen's mps would mess up his ratio. Long time world record holder Eskild Ebbesen is 6'2 and rows at 8 meters per stroke.  </td></tr></table> Hey, you got the quote right that time! Yes. What part of "all" did you not comprehend? EE has run out of rate to trade, he needs to build strength. (Tough to do within weight limits) PS is well balanced, and likely does train at (or near) 10PS, whether he knows it or not. His performances appear so. (1K 2:39.9, 2k 5:38.8) Though unfortunately his 4x only made the A finals in the 2004 Olympics and finished 6th. There is no accurate way to determine ratio from watching a video, so you are mistaken that their ratios are the same. EE is using a very short drive and low ratio (He also didn't use a similar ratio in the LM4-.), PS is maintaining length at a more conventional ratio (i.e. closer to 10PS) Hey, you said "Taller" would be better at 10PS, Eskild is plenty tall to fall into a "taller" category. Now you change to "Taller and Heavier", and you are speaking of "fallacy"? Again, you humor me. There is some validity in thinking that a lighter athlete can trade more rate for pace due to less moving body mass, but that would place an advantage in the hands of the ltws and we all know they need special consideration to compete with regular weight athletes. Stop being silly! It's as if you want to compete with me, and you will never be close to the same class, no matter what math you munge numbers through. Don't worry, it's not your fault, I was fortunate to come from a good gene pool. - Paul Smith

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » September 30th, 2004, 5:17 pm

Its good to have the genial jousting back - George ps (no necessarily PS) Rowing at 20spm/110df at 1:55 I am obviously going more than s10ps, and my goal was to get that consistanly down to 1:50. I thought I was doing this to develop a quicker drive, better technique, and more power .... have I got this wrong then. Not that these things wont be true but am I going to then struggle at a quicker rate subsequantly. (serious question)

[old] JimR · Post by **[old] JimR** » September 30th, 2004, 6:01 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Sep 30 2004, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (PaulS @ Sep 30 2004, 04:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Paul Says: "All Rowers should ***train*** on the Erg S10PS, to fix the stroke ratio." (They can test at whatever rate they decide.)  </td></tr></table> Pavel Shurmei ***rowed*** 9.7 mps at the 2004 Crash B's and Eskild Ebbesen ***rowed*** at 8 mps. You are saying they should both ***train*** at 10 mps.  </td></tr></table> John - Have you ever noticed how these arguements (that include EE somehow) basically come down to PaulS saying something about training and you arguing about racing. Based on the number of times you bring up Eskild Ebbesen I'm wondering ... do you have access to his TRAINING logs??? If so, could you point me to them (I would like to see what's up). JimR FWIW ... I am working with a rower who used to have a hard time a shorter distances because they took so long to get the average pace to target. Since switching over to S10PS (meters/paces consistent with past trends) they are finding it isn't so hard.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 30th, 2004, 6:07 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (GeorgeD @ Sep 30 2004, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Its good to have the genial jousting back - George ps (no necessarily PS) Rowing at 20spm/110df at 1:55 I am obviously going more than s10ps, and my goal was to get that consistanly down to 1:50. I thought I was doing this to develop a quicker drive, better technique, and more power .... have I got this wrong then. Not that these things wont be true but am I going to then struggle at a quicker rate subsequantly. (serious question)  </td></tr></table> (Serious Answer) If you do not learn how to recovery your body properly, you will have a very difficult time bringing the rate up later when you need to. Pulling a 1:50 at SR=20 is 13.6M/Stroke and SPI 13.148, however it's much more like weightlifting than rowing. Remember, you only have so much length (time) with which to get the drive accomplished, and as you go for faster paces this will be reduced and require a higher peak value to attain the same average power for the total stroke, all that in the face of allowing a lot more time for the flywheel to coast (no input). So just as an even pace is more efficient for an entire piece, it is also true for a single stroke and you are maximizing the variaton by using too low of a stroke rate. A move to a DF in the area of 110-115 would not be a bad thing for a bloke of your dimensions. - Paul Smith

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » September 30th, 2004, 8:13 pm

OK makes sense ... so by going faster at 20spm I am developing an exagerated recovery time to drive time which will cause me issues as I look to up my rate. Just for clarification lets agree that my df at between 110/115 is the right realm for someone of my physical dimensions (3 weeks at this df is feeling right for me now) So getting back to the drive/recovery ratio and the s10ps ... we know that 2:00/500 at 25spm is the easiest one to work out, hence there is no point in me using a stroke rate less than that at that pace. And if I want to do 45 minutes at 1:55 then I should be rating approx 26spm and my goal of 60min at 1:50 should be accomplished at 27 (and a bit)spm and a 2k at 6:20 would theoretically erged at 31.5spm and as I tend to race them at about 32/33 I am going to be able to trade a 'little' bit of rate for pace Hence 10mps sounds spot on for me .... and as I believe it is very important to train as you race ... this is what I should be doing - George

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » September 30th, 2004, 9:00 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Sep 30 2004, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>John - Have you ever noticed how these arguements (that include EE somehow) basically come down to PaulS saying something about training and you arguing about racing.  </td></tr></table> Jim, It is easy to make observations of races, which apply the same for training. Racing is easier to measure, there being numerous tapes that are readily available. For example, I did frame by frame measurements of both Ebbesen's and Shurmei's strokes to determine their ratios at Crash B's. I have some training schedules but not access to Ebbesen's personal training logs. That would be nice to have. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>they are finding it isn't so hard.  </td></tr></table> I agree. Decreasing the ratio makes rowing much easier, albeit less productive.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » October 1st, 2004, 9:13 am

Just to join the fray... In the off season over the last couple of years, I have followed Paul's advice and done a lot of strapless rowing at low stroke rates and low drag to try to improve my technique. An interesting result of this training is that I now row almost exactly at 10MPS (e.g., 1:37 at 31 spm) rather than much less (e.g., 1:37 at 36 spm). I also row at a much lower drag (110 df. rather than 175 df.). I don't know how this change in technique will affect my racing (I am just starting to sharped for BIRC), but I suppose we will soon see. ranger

[old] Bayko · Post by **[old] Bayko** » October 1st, 2004, 10:38 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (ranger @ Oct 1 2004, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Just to join the fray... In the off season over the last couple of years, I have followed Paul's advice and done a lot of strapless rowing at low stroke rates and low drag to try to improve my technique. An interesting result of this training is that I now row almost exactly at 10MPS (e.g., 1:37 at 31 spm) rather than much less (e.g., 1:37 at 36 spm). ranger </td></tr></table> Not to be left out of the fray...... My recollection is that you fought the idea of S10MPS as the paces got faster, arguing that there was only a narrow band around 2:00 to 1:45 pace at which it could be done. And now you're an advocate. Maybe that means that there is still hope for John Rupp??? (I still have trouble getting below 1:56-1:55 pace at S10MPS, but I'm still working on it) Rick

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » October 1st, 2004, 11:24 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Oct 1 2004, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I agree. Decreasing the ratio makes rowing much easier, albeit less productive.  </td></tr></table> So now you have finally made it to the proper conclusion (meds must have arrived for October) Decreasing the Meters per stroke, decreases ratio, and makes a given pace easier; it's not all that much less productive, but changing the ratio around makes it more difficult to measure training progress. Are you planning on embarking on a good training plan using S10PS now? I'd suggest "Stop The Madness" (STM). - Paul Smith PS - I'm guessing that you are going to try to wriggle out of this one, since it is so opposite to all of your other posts regarding ratio. (You've obviously made a mistake, which is actually a "correct" when living in Bizzaro World.)

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » October 1st, 2004, 12:00 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>My recollection is that you fought the idea of S10MPS as the paces got faster, arguing that there was only a narrow band around 2:00 to 1:45 pace at which it could be done. And now you're an advocate. Maybe that means that there is still hope for John Rupp???  </td></tr></table> Well, the jury is still out on this. Ultimately, to "advocate" 10MPS, it will have to (eventually!) work for me in racing. It seems to be working in practice, and I have great hopes for it in racing, but I don't know yet. As it turns out, my resistance to S10MPS was a product of a whole bunch of technical problems (high drag, cut slide, poor compression at the catch, weak arms at the finish, improper timing, and so forth) that I have since worked out one by one. (Rowing in a 1x for a year or so has helped enormously in this.) As I used to row, 10MPS at high stroke rates didn't make any sense. With proper technique, however, it makes great sense. I don't yet like 10MPS at low stroke rates, but even this might be that I have just not worked these things out yet. I have done most of my off season strapless rowing at high power, purposely pulling just about as hard as I could (13-15 SPI). The intent of this rowing was not to relax and row easily. On a first go (which I might do sometime soon), I think I would now row a marathon at about 23-24 spm and 1:50 pace. This is heavier stroking than 10MPS (over 11 SPI rather than 9.7). But in the end it might well turn out that Paul is right and 27-28 spm and 9.7 SPI will get me better results, even at low drag and with good technique. We'll soon see. By the way, rowing at 110 df. and using proper technique, I can now do S10MPS at race pace (e.g., 1:37 at 31 spm) very smoothly and easily, in fact, just about as smoothly and easily as when I am strapped in. ranger

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » October 1st, 2004, 1:25 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (PaulS @ Oct 1 2004, 08:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Decreasing the Meters per stroke ... makes a given pace easier </td></tr></table> Freudian slip? Sure is hard to avoid admitting the truth isn't it Paul.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » October 1st, 2004, 2:45 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Oct 1 2004, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (PaulS @ Oct 1 2004, 08:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Decreasing the Meters per stroke ... makes a given pace easier </td></tr></table> Freudian slip? Sure is hard to avoid admitting the truth isn't it Paul.  </td></tr></table> The truth is funny that way. No slip at all, this is something I have said for a long time, remember "trading rate for pace" = Less meters per stroke = Less ratio = Easier for a given pace. (until you run out of rate to trade, then you are stuck) = Poor training principle For training to be meaningful, it must be measureable, S10PS is an easy way to establish measureability and it just happens to have other benefits as well, I didn't make it happen that way, C2 did, I just noticed and quantified it. This is exactly how you have been cheating yourself out of good training for a long time. Once again, you show how silly and wrong you are. - Paul Smith By the way - A Freudian slip would be more like seeing a nice looking ski bunny and exclaiming "Nice Boobs! Err, I meant Boots." Or "You're a dipshit... dumbshit... Err, dipstick!" * It's very unlikely to have happen with the written word, but for purposes of an example, I'll do it just this once. (Editors please feel free to *bleep* my message if it is "over the line".) There are also the rather unfortunate slips of the tongue, due to words being spelled differently and having vastly different meanings, one of the funniest at the Olympics was "Hey look, the princess is kissing the cox of the Men's eight." Followed by "Oh my God! what have I just said?!" * Terms used for illustrative purposes only, any resembelance to actual persons, living, deceased, real, or imagined, is purely conincidental.

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