Wolverine Plan Discussion

[[old] TomR/the elder]

Carla--<br /><br />One question: Do your level 3 and 4 workouts leave you whipped, so you've compromised your ability to do your faster workouts? Asked differently, would your overall training be more effective if you were to ease off a bit on the pace of the longer stuff, so you could pick up the pace of the shorter stuff?<br /><br />That may not be the case w/ you, but on occasion I have found that my enthusiasm for a longer workout can leave me w/ less snort for a subsequent level 1 or level 2. <br /><br />Tom

[[old] seat5]

<!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Dec 10 2005, 01:50 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Dec 10 2005, 01:50 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Carla--<br /><br />One question: Do your level 3 and 4 workouts leave you whipped, so you've compromised your ability to do your faster workouts? Asked differently, would your overall training be more effective if you were to ease off a bit on the pace of the longer stuff, so you could pick up the pace of the shorter stuff?<br /><br />That may not be the case w/ you, but on occasion I have found that my enthusiasm for a longer workout can leave me w/ less snort for a subsequent level 1 or level 2. <br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Maybe that's true. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I don't row every day, usually 4--5 times a week, and it's because I feel I need more recovery time than an every day schedule would give me. So maybe if I went lighter on the long workout days I'd be faster at the sprints. It just feels so silly to piddaddle along at 16 spm and 2:20, 18 spm and 2:15, and 20 spm and 2:11 when it takes hardly more effort to do 16 spm at 2:15, 18 spm at 2:10 or 2:11 and 18 spm at 2:06. I feel like I might as well be knitting for all the good it's doing me. If I'm going to make the time to work out, eat dinner late to fit it in, take two showers that day and generate heaps of stinking laundry I might as well walk away feeling like I've done the best I can.<br /><br />I was good and tired when I finished that level 4 today but have lots of energy for all the other stuff I have to do. I'll do a Level 1 on Sunday and it will feel awful the way it always does...

[[old] TomR/the elder]

Carla--<br /><br />It does sound like you're getting adequate recovery. I guess you've just got to commit yourself to an awfuller level 1 experience.<br /><br />Tom

[[old] mpukita]

OK, are we now saying:<br /><br />"The more awfuller rows the better."?<br /><br />Might make a good T-shirt design.<br /><br />Maybe something like:<br /><br /><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:blue'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>ROW AWFULLY</b></span></span></span><br /><br />

[[old] seat5]

Well, this morning I am somewhat sore, which must be because 60 minutes is 20 mintes longer than 40. <br /><br />My level 1's are definitely Rowing Awfully--not only ridiculously slow, but painfully completed, and always accompanied by internal mental bullying! I never feel successful when I'm done and the results are always inconsistent and mediocre. Most hateful workout of the week. "I hates it forever!" (--Gollum, in Lord of the Rings) All I can hope for is that if I stick to doing all the other workouts faithfully that these will improve. If they would just improve to the extent that they are the same speed but don't feel as miserable it will be progress. <br /><br />I've always done all my rowing (before level 4s came along) at 10MPS and so I find myself doing the level 1's this way. Should I just be throwing caution to the winds and really do it free rate? I remember reading somewhere in the WP that only level 4 is restricted, but that doing 10mps on the other workouts was sensible. I'm sort of fixated on doing 10mps on Level 3 and longer workouts and it carries over. I wonder if I would do better at Level 1 if I just thrashed away however it came.

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-seat5+Dec 10 2005, 01:30 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(seat5 @ Dec 10 2005, 01:30 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I did 176, 188, 176, 188, 176, 188.  My used 1:52 as my reference pace even though my 2k pb pace is actually 1:57, but still ended  277 meters over.  However, I was  <b>perfect on the number of strokes</b>.  Basically this means I was doing this workout at a reference pace of 148.5 or so--about 9 seconds faster than I can do a 2K.  I was really excited about being perfect on the number of strokes, that's a first!  <br /><br />I know I'm not doing this plan at all perfectly--my level 1 workouts are at 1:54--1:55; level 4 is coming out as if I was using 1:48.5 as a reference; level 3s I've been doing at around 2:05.  I am not sure how to figure out what reference pace that goes with but if I worked things out correctly before I'm supposed to be doing level 3 around 2:14 or something (if basing it on a 1:57 2K pace).<br /><br />Basically I'm hopelessly out of balance as far as the long distance stuff vs. the sprints.  But it seems to me that doing the L4s at the higher paces will make me a lot stronger so that my sprints will improve?  I can't see any sense in doing the L4s and L3s at what the charts say I should be doing--it's not a work out and I don't see how it will help me improve.  So I am just doing my best at each kind of workout, and trying not to be bothered that my sprint workouts aren't as fast as they should be.<br /><br />I wish I had started this program before I got so screwed up!!! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Carla,<br /><br />At what spm are you doing your L1? It should be in the range of 30-36.<br />Also, what is the fastest pace you can hold for three consecutive strokes? If it is anywhere near your current 1:54 L1 pace, that would indicate a weakness in strength compared to your aerobic capacity.<br />When doing L1, I make sure my spm is in the 32-34 and I pull as hard as necessary, no matter what, to maintain my target pace. Of course, it hurts!<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />Francois

[[old] Bayko]

<!--QuoteBegin-seat5+Dec 10 2005, 03:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(seat5 @ Dec 10 2005, 03:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, this morning I am somewhat sore, which must be because 60 minutes is 20 mintes longer than 40.  <br /><br />My level 1's are definitely Rowing Awfully--not only ridiculously slow, but painfully completed, and always accompanied by internal mental bullying! I never feel successful when I'm done and the results are always inconsistent and mediocre.  Most hateful workout of the week. "I hates it forever!"   (--Gollum, in Lord of the Rings)  All I can hope for is that if I stick to doing all the other workouts faithfully that these will improve.  If they would just improve to the extent that they are the same speed but don't feel as miserable it will be progress. <br /><br />I've always done all my rowing (before level 4s came along) at 10MPS and so I find myself doing the level 1's this way.  Should I just be throwing caution to the winds and really do it free rate?  I remember reading somewhere in the WP that only level 4 is restricted, but that doing 10mps on the other workouts was sensible.  I'm sort of fixated on doing 10mps on Level 3 and longer workouts and it carries over.  I wonder if I would do better at Level 1 if I just thrashed away however it came. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul has always indicated that when race day or test time comes that trading a little rate for pace is perfectly acceptable. The S10MPS is a training tool, and probably fine with Level 3 and even Level 2. I think that he would consider Level 1 to be one of those situations where trading rate for pace is called for. Going to unrestriced on Level 1 might well bring that in line with your other WP levels.<br /><br /><br />Rick<br /><br />P.S. I hope that you'll let Doug Smith talk you into coming to the NE2KC in January.<br />Rick<br />

[[old] mpukita]

I get no sense from reading the WP, and from Mike's narratives, that rate is an issue for any Level except Level 4. Maybe I missed something?

[[old] Bayko]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Dec 10 2005, 05:31 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Dec 10 2005, 05:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I get no sense from reading the WP, and from Mike's narratives, that rate is an issue for any Level except Level 4.  Maybe I missed something? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Oops. I didn't mean to be confusing. My answer to Carla was meant to be in the context of someone used to doing PaulS's S10MPS and trying to combine elements of it with the WP.<br /><br />My words, not Mike's. (I probably shouldn't have the audacity to be interpreting Paul either )<br /><br />Rick

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bayko+Dec 10 2005, 01:40 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Bayko @ Dec 10 2005, 01:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Dec 10 2005, 05:31 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Dec 10 2005, 05:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I get no sense from reading the WP, and from Mike's narratives, that rate is an issue for any Level except Level 4.  Maybe I missed something? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Oops. I didn't mean to be confusing. My answer to Carla was meant to be in the context of someone used to doing PaulS's S10MPS and trying to combine elements of it with the WP.<br /><br />My words, not Mike's.<br /><br />Rick <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ahhh, my error. Sorry!

[[old] ragiarn]

Concerning Mike Cavistons recommendation of spm for the various levels:<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->More About Stroke Rate: Ratings during Level 4 are designated as part of the workout, but <br />for Levels 1-3 athletes should select ratings most comfortable for them and allow ratings to develop naturally, without too much conscious thought. <br />In general, ratings for Level 3 will probably be in the range of 24-28; L<br />Level 2, 26-32; and <br />Level 1, 30-36. These numbers may be even higher at the end of the year as maximum fitness is reached. <br />A general rule of thumb is if an athlete can reach his/her goal at a lower rather than a higher rating, good. That leaves more room to improve. If an athlete must row excessively high to reach his/her goal early in the season, there will be problems later. Lack of strength is probably a factor and could be addressed specifically during other conditioning portions of the overall training season.) <br />excerpted from Mike Caviston - outlined by me<br /> </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Carla: your numbers may not be as far off as you think. <br />Have you figured out your MPS for the level 4. <br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've always done all my rowing (before level 4s came along) at 10MPS and so I find myself doing the level 1's this way.  Should I just be throwing caution to the winds and really do it free rate?  I remember reading somewhere in the WP that only level 4 is restricted, but that doing 10mps on the other workouts was sensible.  I </td></tr></table> <br /><br />I calculated you MPS for you level 4 workout: <br />188 2249m =11.96 MPS<br />176 2204m =12.5 MPS - <br />Whether you realize it or not your level 4 workout is giving you longer MPS than <br />your previous workouts. That means at 17.6 spm you will average 220 meters/min. If you can now maintain that same MPS at 30 spm you would cover 375 meters/min or you would complete 2000 m in 5:33 minutes.<br /><br />To quote Mike:<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another viable plan has been built around the premise of systematically increasing stroke rate while keeping the distance covered per stroke fixed at 10 meters. Mike Caviston </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Another quote:<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Level 4 workouts are unique and contain a few features the other Levels do not. <br />the primary physiological benefit is to develop <br />not only <b>endurance</b>, <br />but also <b>strength and power per stroke</b><br />Another important benefit is to develop a <br /><b> very accurate sense of pacing </b>.<br />These workouts can be used to <br /><b>develop timing & rhythm as well as conditioning</b>,<br />Another potential benefit that encompasses <b>psychological as well physiological and neurological adaptation </b>, is that by learning to produce a given power output at lower ratings, it should be possible to eventually produce the <i> same power output using a higher rating, creating a decreased perception of effort</i>[B/]<br />The stroke rating is always strictly prescribed, whereas rating for Levels 1-3 vary somewhat from person to person, beginning at 16spm and occasionally reaching 24 or even 26spm, but most ratings will be in the 18-22 range </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Another item to remember is the 2K pace. At the moment I don't recall where the exact quote is however Mike indicates that in novices where there is not a long history of rowing to fall back on the 2K reference pace can be recalculated if performance warrants it. I assume that you like myself are a novice at rowing just trying to find your correct pace. <br /><br />Also and most importantly the level 4 session are really supposed to be recovery pieces during which you work on your rowing mechanics. Since you are apparently very versed in music I will use an analogy. When you are first learning a new music score you undoubtedly practice very carefully being sure to get each note in the right sequence and tempo. During this period you are concentrating on each note and sequence. As you become more acquainted with the piece you think less and let your fingers play the notes. Finally when you have mastered the piece you can play it at full tempo without the score and you do not even think of the notes but the music just flows. The thinking process is taken out of the equation.<br /><br />The same goes in rowing. In doing the 16 spm you are trying to perfect your technique and rhythm and may have to think of the various steps from the catch to the recovery phase and getting the most out of each phase. As you become more comfortable at that pace you can increase the pace and maintain the same intensity per stroke. With luck you can carry most of the same intensity per stroke all the way up to a 30 spm.<br /><br />Finally you must be careful not to try and peak too soon. You want to be able to get you best times just as you are entering the last week prior to the most important race of the season. If you peak a month earlier you may not be able to sustain that same level intensity for the rest of the month. You don't want to crash and burn during your training. You run the risk of leaving your PB 2k in the training room instead of the race. I could give you a number of examples of athletes who peaked too soon and failed to meet expectations when the real competition was at hand. <br /><br />I,like you, am still trying to find my pace and have had to change my entire rowing mechanics in the past 3 weeks because I was doing it incorrectly.<br /><br />Ralph Giarnella <br />Southington, CT

[[old] dougsurf]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mike Caviston+Dec 8 2005, 01:14 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Caviston @ Dec 8 2005, 01:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In case anyone missed it, somebody in another thread posted a link to some information about the “anaerobic threshold” and lactate testing <a href='http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/billat.html' target='_blank'>HERE</a>.  This outlines many of my objections (I have a few others).  It brings to mind one of my major philosophies regarding training.  I’m sure I’ve explained this to some extent but it’s good to repeat & clarify.<br /><br />When I train, I’m not training to increase my aerobic capacity, or raise my lactate threshold, or lower my resting heart rate, or improve my muscular strength or endurance, or increase my capillary or mitochondrial density, or enhance my lipid metabolism, or do anything except lower my 2K time.  Lowering my 2K is my focus and everything else is secondary, a consequence or byproduct or symptom of training, not a goal.  ....<br /><br />Mike Caviston <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Mike & All,<br /><br />What presently attracts me to the Wolverine plan the most, are a collection of underlying principles which, right or wrong, I like. An example is the very linear, baby step approach to progress, as opposed to the concept of periodization heard elsewhere. Periodization always struck me as little more than a hedge against overtraining, which was symptomatic of some major mistake in the program not properly addressed. I think periodization also flies in the face of the principle of detraining which, as I understand it, takes place at a rate something like 3x the rate of training progress.<br /><br />Here Mike comes out swinging for the principle of specificity, applied here to physiological effects. If 2k is your goal, train for that, period. The same principle applies to training activity. I have put in lots of time running, for example, to find little benefit applied to my erg score. Case was closed when I hadn't run in several months when erging very hard, went out for a brisk 5 miler one day, and almost couldn't walk for several of the next days. I think running and rowing have almost zero in common.<br /><br />Question (finally): Does your specific focus on rowing, and the Wolverine Plan, actually discourage other supplemental training? I mention running, but let's say, in addition to The Plan, do you ever recommend an occasional once/week circuit with free weights, a session of core exercises (very trendy), or anything else for the sake of "balance"? Or, if we have time for one more session, would it be better to just add one more L4 workout, esp. if we're doing less than nine erg sessions per week? <br /><br />Comments from Mike or anyone else greatly appreciated. Thanks!<br /><br />

[[old] Mike Caviston]

<!--QuoteBegin-dougsurf+Dec 10 2005, 05:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dougsurf @ Dec 10 2005, 05:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Does your specific focus on rowing, and the Wolverine Plan, actually discourage other supplemental training? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No, not at all. I currently do a 20-30’ weights/core stability session 2-3 days per week, daily pushups and sit-ups, and 30-40’ on the stationary bike every day. But the key word is <b>supplemental</b> – I like these activities to round out my total fitness and provide a little variety, but they can’t replace my erg workouts. If you have a specific 2K performance goal on the erg, a certain amount of erg work has to be done to achieve the goal. I add additional work with careful consideration for total training volume & intensity, and try to be as consistent as possible across the season – but when I’m pressed for time the supplemental work is the first to go.<br /><br />Mike Caviston <br /><br />

[[old] ragiarn]

Stroke rate:<br />Where is the point of diminishing returns.<br /><br />I am wondering if one in this group knows where the point of diminishing returns is when it comes to increasing stroke rate? I have been trying to figure this out lately and I suspect that it might be somewhere in the 36+ range. <br /><br />As was pointed out in an earlier posts the ratio of recovery to drive at the slower rates is roughly 2:1 but may change to 1:1 at the the higher rates.<br /><br />As we increase the stroke rate something has to give. Let me explain. <br /><br /><br />At a stroke rate of 15 spm each stroke takes 4 seconds. If we theoretically break that down into the components drive to recovery we get 1.33 seconds for drive and 2.66 seconds for recovery. If we are in a boat the boat is continuously moving for a full 2.66 seconds after the drive is completed. It takes a certain amount of force during the drive to propel the boat the full 10 meters.<br /><br />Now lets take a look at 30 spm. Each stroke takes 2 seconds. If we were follow the 1:2 ration that would be .67 seconds for the drive and 1.34 sec for recovery. <br /><br />We now have 1/2 the time to produce the appropriate force to propel the boat and since power is measured as a product of force and time we have to produce twice the force in half the time to propel the boat the same 10 meters (I am not a physics major). That is fine however we now have 1/2 the time for recovery. The problem now is that the muscles have 1/2 the time to recover and recharge before the next stroke. The ability of the muscles to recover in the shortened time will depend on many factors including the heart’s ability to pump enough blood to the muscles, the lungs capacity to remove CO2 from the blood. The capacity of the blood cells to deliver enough O2 to the muscle cells to remove the H+ ions and prevent a drop in pH etc, etc etc. <br /><br />Now let us look at 48 spm: at 45 spm each stroke takes 1.25 seconds.<br />Assuming at this point a 1:1 ratio the drive takes .625 seconds and the recovery .625 seconds. <br /><br />We might be able to produce the same power at this pace however we have significantly less time to allow the muscle fibers to recover before the next stroke comes due. Something has to give. If the blood supply cannot provide the right 02 etc the muscles will soon run out of steam and power production will soon decline. (Crash and burn anyone!!).<br /><br /><br />It now becomes obvious that the rate of work per stroke is not linear. In other words doubling or tripling the stroke rate does not double or triple the work output. <br /><br />There is a tradeoff between stroke rate and power production. The question is where does this occur? You would not attempt to race at 16 spm, but what about 48 or 60 spm? <br />Somewhere in between these extremes there is and ideal compromise. This ideal spm rate by the way is also a variable and will depend on many factors. Mike makes it a point that if you can get the same result at a lower spm you are better off. If your previous PB was achieved at a spm rate of 36 and now you can accomplish the same PB at a spm of 30 spm you have improved.<br /><br />If your present PB is achieved at a stroke rate of 36 the only way to improve your PB is to either increase your stroke rate or increase the amount of work done per stroke. <br /><br />The whole purpose,<b> in my opinion</b>, of the Level 4 workouts is to improve the amount of work down per stroke at 16 spm and then translate that same work per stroke to 18 spm and then 20 spm and 22 spm. Hopefully over the course of the training session you will be able to translate that to your optimal racing stroke rate.<br /><br />To repeat my question: Does anyone know where the point of diminishing returns is? What is the ideal racing spm generally speaking and for you as an individual.<br /><br />Ralph Giarnella <br />Southington, CT

[[old] kjgress]

<!--QuoteBegin-seat5+Dec 9 2005, 08:30 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(seat5 @ Dec 9 2005, 08:30 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />my level 1 workouts are at 1:54--1:55; level 4 is coming out as if I was using 1:48.5 as a reference; level 3s I've been doing at around 2:05. <br /><br />Basically I'm hopelessly out of balance as far as the long distance stuff vs. the sprints.  But it seems to me that doing the L4s at the higher paces will make me a lot stronger so that my sprints will improve? <br /><br /> I can't see any sense in doing the L4s and L3s at what the charts say I should be doing--it's not a work out and I don't see how it will help me improve.  So I am just doing my best at each kind of workout, and trying not to be bothered that my sprint workouts aren't as fast as they should be.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /> Your level 1 workouts show very close to your 2K; If your 2K split is 1:57, your 500 split will be 1:54-1:55 (right where yours is). THE WHOLE POINT OF THE WP PLAN IS TO IMPROVE 2K. THE LEVEL 2-4 WORKOUTS SUPPORT THE LEVEL 1 WORKOUT WHICH IS THE GREATEST PREDICTOR OF 2K PERFORMANCE (quotes from the WP). <br /><br />So, if you want to improve your 2K you need to improve the level 1 scores. Going fast in level 3 and 4 will not improve the 2K score (my words, not Mike's). <br /><br />How are the level 2 workouts going? They are also a necessary component of being able to go fast at 2K.<br /><br />Also, here is something to consider. Is your ultimate goal to improve your 2K score or to excel at longer distances? If you are after a fast 2K score then the WP is perfect because it targets 2K improvement. If your goal is to be fast at the longer distances, then it may not be for you. The longer distances are not the focus of the WP, they play a supporting role.<br /><br />On a different note, you were mentioning mps. I don't know where I got the numbers but they are in my journal like this: Level 1, less than 10 mps, level 2, 10mps, level 3 11 mps. I don't train this way, but I have written down most of the info I could find and I must've gotten it from somewhere in the literature.<br />