What Strength Training Have You Done Today

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » May 11th, 2005, 7:53 am

Jane and Diesel, Sorry guys, I knew I shouldn't have written that post about the supplements. It's a very sore subject for me. I really don't like being lied too. Especially when it has to do with someones health. Years ago a person could by any of the magazines and find good solid information in each of them, each month. Now they are loaded with nothing but advertisments for supplements. I supposed some of them are okay, but most aren't. Jane, there is no need to apologize for bringing up the topic. It should be discussed. Maybe more folks would be aware of the dangers. Diesel, yes I know Dave. And many of the others that were the "Biggies" way back when. Your workout looks pretty good. I wish I could still hit the iron like that, but parts wear out. And mine seem to be wearing out faster than I wish. There are still a lot of things (physical things) I want to do and my old bod doesn't want to hear it. Here's a question for both of you. Or anyone else that would like to throw their hat in. If you've done an exercise for a given muscle group, let's say squats, and you've done it to the point that you can't do another rep., why is there a need to do another exercise for that same group? Again, sorry about the rant. Yoda

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » May 11th, 2005, 10:52 am

Hey Yoda, not a problem, my friend. Here's a question: Have you ever tried Dave's "TopSquat" - it looks really cool - especially when he starts repping out with squats at 405!! at 60+ years of age!! That man inspires the young turks, to be sure!! That video on his website is really something else. He truly practices what he preaches. Here's another: have you read his book? I'll probably end up buying it when I have some free time to actually read something that isn't law related. The reason I ask about the TopSquat is because I have to be careful with bar placement on my back - because I'm tall (6'4") and long-limbed - which is good for rowing - crappy for squatting and bench-pressing. I'm also a delt-dominant presser - so on the bench - ugh. I'm a disaster! And yes, I agree with you, 90% of the supplements out there are complete crap and most supplement companies are only out to bilk you of your hard earned cash. You have a right to be indignant. I know I do when I read some of the crap they try to sell to the young, clueless newbie who sees the doctored "before" and "after" pictures and has dreams of being big and strong. Like you said, some magic supplement isn't going to make you big and strong - only a lot of hard work, thrist for more and more training knowledge, a good training and nutrition plan, and the dedication to reach your goals. Everything else is really incidental. Let's see the supplement du jours: NO2, Methoxy-7 (which supposedly gives you "steroid like gains" - sure.....). It truly is a jungle out there in the training universe. stay strong! D

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » May 11th, 2005, 11:04 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Yoda1 @ May 11 2005, 06:53 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Here's a question for both of you. Or anyone else that would like to throw their hat in. If you've done an exercise for a given muscle group, let's say squats, and you've done it to the point that you can't do another rep., why is there a need to do another exercise for that same group? Again, sorry about the rant. Yoda </td></tr></table> Well, for example in legs, I use the back squat to really nail the glutes, hip flexors and warm up the hams, but I find since I am so tall, the vastus medialis (the tear drop muscle just above the knee) does not really get adequate stimulation - even when I go below parallel. Therefore, the only way to really nail'em is with the Front Squat - I also Front Squat because I train in 4 week cycles and take one week off after every 2nd cycle (8 weeks on/1 week off) and I like to throw in an Olympic Lifting cycle every 3rd one. You need Front Squats if you are going to be playing with the Oly Lifts. I don't go to near failure on the squats because I usually workout alone and I don't really trust most of the guys that train in my gym to spot me - they aren't the most knowledgeable guys on training, if you catch my drift... . Leg Press - I throw in as a final set (note I only do one) - that one I take to near failure to get that overload. I do Hamstrings - mostly to assist the squats and to strengthen the posterior chain which is the key to overall strength - most of my daily workouts will include some form of posterior chain work - with the exception of chest day and arm day (which is mostly triceps dominant to assist the bench with a couple of sets for biceps, and some wrist flexor work which is necessary if you are sculling in any capacity.

[old] JaneW. · Post by **[old] JaneW.** » May 11th, 2005, 12:35 pm

Yoda, Happy to hear you're feeling better. I plan to think of you today because the power of love and compassion has a dramatic effect on healing physical problems. Wee, little me is pooped from yesterday's conversation. I'll join you later. Diesel, on the otherhand, is like an energizer battery " Takes a licking and keeps on ticking" Have no idea where he gets all his energy with people. Last night yoga with pilates

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » May 11th, 2005, 1:44 pm

No time to bike yesterday so I went running. As I got going on the road (w/ shoes) I was sore/stiff to the point that I decided to warm up by just walking fast. When I got to the field, I took off my shoes and got going with an easy jog. NO soreness. I ran steady 70% HRR for 30 minutes. I had the feeling that I could do this for a long time. Remarkable for early season. No soreness today. I'm thinking some of this "success" is related to a general approach to fitness prior to engaging the specific. Clearly many training plans outline a "general preparation phase" in the offseason, but I'll just extoll it here a little and twist Nike's slogan: "Just do something else" --Jim

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » May 11th, 2005, 4:26 pm

Diesel gets all that energy from all those drugs he's been taking. Just joking. No I haven't seen Dave's website but I'll go looking after I finish with this post. I'm not aware of the "Top Squat" but hopefully I'll find it as well. It's probably one of those old, old exercises that Dave has brought back. He's not very original, you know. Yes, I have his book. He signed it for me and sent it over here. He wrote "To the smuck". The dingbat. A couple of suggestions for your squat. Just think about it. If bar placement is a problem you might consider using a Bufflo Bar. I read somewhere where they are back in production. I'll see if I can find it somewhere and let you know. Or as I tried sometime ago to get anyone to try "Barrel Squats". No takers. Will you be the one to give it a go? They will kick your butt. Here's a suggestion for your Bench. Use a neutral grip. Palms facing each other. Of course with long limbs you'll probably never be great at bench, but I'll bet you'll see a big jump in poundage if you use this for a while. You know my bench stroke is just a little under 11 inches. Yours is probably close to double that. Back to my question. Which you didn't answer. Do you think that the quads know the difference between back squats and front squats? Or that the glutes are doing leg press rather than squats? Do you think that by doing different exercises for the same muscle group changes the shape of that muscle group? Jim, How do you run in your barefeet? I can't walk from the bedroom to the *** DELETE - SPAM *** without my socks and shoes let alone go running barefoot. I gotta go row now. Yoda

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » May 11th, 2005, 11:37 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Yoda1 @ May 11 2005, 03:26 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I'll see if I can find it somewhere and let you know. Or as I tried sometime ago to get anyone to try "Barrel Squats". No takers. Will you be the one to give it a go? </td></tr></table> The obvious question. What kind of barrel do you use? Where would I find one? But yeah, I'm game !! I'll be the board guinea pig. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Here's a suggestion for your Bench. Use a neutral grip. Palms facing each other. </td></tr></table> I would assume you mean with dumbbells? How could you use a neutral grip on a barbell? <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Back to my question. Which you didn't answer. Do you think that the quads know the difference between back squats and front squats? </td></tr></table> No. not really. However, the back squat and front squat do emphasize different muscles. I do think if I were shorter I could just do one or the other exclusive as the load would be distributed more evenly across the whole quadriceps complex. But it seems that with me I only feel the back squats across the upper part of the leg, the glutes, and the hammies as I am coming out of the hole. With the front squats I can really feel the vastus medialis firing - and.. I just really like doing them - they are really challenging. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Or that the glutes are doing leg press rather than squats? Do you think that by doing different exercises for the same muscle group changes the shape of that muscle group? </td></tr></table> To the first part of this question: no. I do them to insure overload on the muscles - something which I don't do on squats because I don't do them to failure. I just go heavy enough to do really deep, controlled, reps. I estimate about 80% of my current 1RM. To the second part of the question. No. But I do feel that the legs {and back} are big enough that to ensure complete development you have to hit them with different exercises. Do you have video of the barrel squat? Or maybe some of those neutral grip presses? take care, D

[old] slo_boat · Post by **[old] slo_boat** » May 12th, 2005, 10:08 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(DIESEL @ May 11 2005, 10:37 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Yoda1 @ May 11 2005, 03:26 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I'll see if I can find it somewhere and let you know. Or as I tried sometime ago to get anyone to try "Barrel Squats". No takers. Will you be the one to give it a go? </td></tr></table> The obvious question. What kind of barrel do you use? Where would I find one? But yeah, I'm game !! I'll be the board guinea pig. <snip> Do you have video of the barrel squat? Or maybe some of those neutral grip presses? take care, D </td></tr></table> Are we talking about a real barrel? How do you squat a barrel? Wineries pay between $300 and $600 for oak barrels, and they can only use them about three times. Once they are no longer any good for aging wine, they sell them. The going price is about $50.

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » May 12th, 2005, 11:46 am

Diesel and slo_boat, Barrel Squats-No, I know of no videos of the perfromance of Barrel Squats, but it's easy to explain. First you need a 30 gallon plastic barrel with the lid. Cost is about 10-12 bucks. Load some iron into it. Don't forget to put the lid back on or the barrel will be crushed. I suggest you go light to begin with in order to get the feel. Place one foot on either side and squat down. Bearhug the barrel just below the center and lock your hands. Your chin should be right a the top of the barrel. Now stand up and repeat. Simply, huh? What this does by squeezing the barrel is it forces you to stand straight. Because the barrel is againest your chest it's almost immposible to load the small of your back. It also gives stress to the area above the knees. Almost the same feeling that you get when doing hacks. It not only works the legs and glutes, it also works the whole upper body as well. Some people with short arms tie a rope around the barrel in the middle to hold on to. I don't think that someone built like a spider monkey would have a problem without the rope though. Pickle plants are a good place to find barrels. Don't forget to wash them out good. Especially, if it's a barrel that had dill pickles in it. Sweet pickles are so bad. I'll be anxious to hear how you make out. Neutral Grip for Bench-Many years ago there was a bar called the "Ray Bar" being produced. Don't know if anyone is still making them but it was one of the best training tools available for bench. I think it helped me to be able to get my best bench. It looks like a ladder turned sideways with multible grips about 4" apart. I have one here at the house. But I can't use it. Having said that, dumbells would be the next best movement in my mind. Dips will help your bench considerably as well. Weighted Dips with a heavy foward lean are absolutely GREAT!!!! Shaping muscles-If a muscle group is completely worked with just one exercise then why is it necessary to do a second one? Or a third? Are we talking about the coordination of the movement or the development of the muscle? Again, if the muscle group is being worked hard enough for development with one exercise how can there be any gain to working it further? Example: Bicep Curl with a Barbell versus a Dumbell Hammer Curl. If I work the bicep to it's max doing barbell curls then what do I have to gain from doing DB hammer curls? Or visa versa. The muscle fiber has been worked. Come on, Diesel, you know the answer to this. Gawd, I love these conversation. Yoda

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » May 12th, 2005, 12:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Shaping muscles-If a muscle group is completely worked with just one exercise then why is it necessary to do a second one? Or a third? Are we talking about the coordination of the movement or the development of the muscle? Again, if the muscle group is being worked hard enough for development with one exercise how can there be any gain to working it further? Example: Bicep Curl with a Barbell versus a Dumbell Hammer Curl. If I work the bicep to it's max doing barbell curls then what do I have to gain from doing DB hammer curls? Or visa versa. The muscle fiber has been worked. Come on, Diesel, you know the answer to this. Gawd, I love these conversation. Yoda </td></tr></table> When it comes to smaller muscle groups like bis, tris, and pecs, yes, I agree. For example I only do 2 sets of heavy barbell curls for biceps - that's all. They get plenty of work on back day. But when it comes to bigger groups like the legs and back - you have to do different exercises - for example, Deads hit the whole back - but it is not as effective for the lats as a heavy rowing movement or pull-ups. Conversely, heavy rows and pull-ups do almost nothing for your posterior chain, traps, or your spinal erectors (not to mention the lower back) like deads would. Same thing goes for legs - squats work the hamstrings - but it is a secondary muscle and thus not as effective for growth as direct work like stiff-legged/romanian deads or good mornings. In the taller lifters - deep back squats do not hit the lower part of the quad adequately, even when going below parallel. And playing around with bar positioning on the back can become dangerous (excessive load bearing by the lower back - which is why I'm intrigued by the TopSquat). If anything The only options are to do hack squats (the real ones), front squats, or play with the foot positioning on the leg press. This is the rationale. Maybe I am approaching this too much like a bodybuilder with an eye toward aesthetics. But, unfortunately, it is a problem that some of the taller bodybuilders have.

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » May 12th, 2005, 12:59 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Jim, How do you run in your barefeet? I can't walk from the bedroom to the *** DELETE - SPAM *** without my socks and shoes let alone go running barefoot. </td></tr></table> I have no idea. That's the best part. Thrilling to watch you body tap into what it really does know. We have evolved to run and in our roughly 100,000 year history as Homo Sapiens we have a loooooooooooong history of running without Nikes. What I like is how the forefoot "tests" each and every footstrike and gives your whole leg (even your whole body) the split-second feedback to "design" the plant and eventualy push off.

[old] slo_boat · Post by **[old] slo_boat** » May 12th, 2005, 4:08 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Yoda1 @ May 12 2005, 10:46 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Diesel and slo_boat, Neutral Grip for Bench-Many years ago there was a bar called the "Ray Bar" being produced. Don't know if anyone is still making them but it was one of the best training tools available for bench. I think it helped me to be able to get my best bench. It looks like a ladder turned sideways with multible grips about 4" apart. I have one here at the house. But I can't use it. Having said that, dumbells would be the next best movement in my mind. Dips will help your bench considerably as well. Weighted Dips with a heavy foward lean are absolutely GREAT!!!! Yoda </td></tr></table> There used to be a few people that swore by dips. I don't remember the name of the person that did not bench at all (Dan L or something). Instead he did a variety of dips. He had his own magazine. This is about the time that Strength and Health was a popular magazine for lifters. (Is Bob Hoffman still around?) That would have been '75 - '80 or so. Names like Arnold, Franco, Zane, Ferrigno were just getting well known. Nautilus was just coming out. The Mentzer brothers were talking about doing huge amounts of weight. There used to be a guy named Hatfield that people called Dr. Squat. (Wow! This sure brings back some old memories.)

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » May 12th, 2005, 9:19 pm

Diesel and slo-boat, slo-boat--watch it, your dating yourself. It was Dan Laurie (can't spell to save my butt.) Hoffman died many moons ago. The Mentzer brothers are both gone now, as well. Fred Hatfield is bouncing around and a great source of information. I think Jim mentioned him a couple of weeks ago. Jim, if you read this, give OLD slo_boat the website info. Then the old guys can catch up. Diesel--The top squat looks interesting. But before you purhase one, do the barrel squat thing first. It will cost less and I think you'll enjoy the challenge. It will put you in the same body position plus you wil have to use your upper body more. Maybe you could try the old 20 Squat routine. One exercise for the whole body. Then crawl to the nearest watering hole. I'll get back to you on the muscle shaping thing later. Got to take myownself to the hospital to get checked. It's what happens when an Aluminum ladder colapses while your standing on the top rung. Yoda

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » May 12th, 2005, 10:48 pm

Google search on Fred Hatfield: www.drsquat.com Tonight I got into jumping rope barefoot. I had to be good at it because if I messed up the somewhat weighted rope slammed my toes like a whip. Eventually I tired of the abuse but I think I'll be good at this soon. I then went into the house to do some hindu squats ( I like to be warmed up). I thought 300 would be doable again. I felt fine at 300 and so took it to 400 (12 minutes). At this point my wife was cracking jokes "are you going to do that all night?". I said, "maybe" and then she gave her professional ACSM certified opinion: "Maybe you are over doing it here too early" and so I stopped. I hammered a very comfortable 17 pull ups this morning and worked on some barbell military presses (which I'm terrible at). I also tried a heavy resistance band doing curls with it. I set up a challenge to do 20 reps rapid-fire. That burns nicely, gets you pumped and engaged my heart in a way much different from a barbell curl. Interesting stress.

[old] slo_boat · Post by **[old] slo_boat** » May 12th, 2005, 11:17 pm

Yoda, OLD??? I used to read all the magazines I could get my hands on and then go do the workouts. I was an 18 year old Marine and could do anything!!! I later figured out that the articles were interesting, but the workouts themselves were mostly things the writers thought sounded good and not what anyone actually did (except for 18 year old jarheads that did not know any better). I like what you have to say about supplements, although some of the things that people call supplements are not supplements at all, simply rarely eaten traditional foods (like flax seed or some of the less well known grains). I think the problem with supplements comes about either when modern chemistry tries to isolate the "active ingredient" or when people adopt the if a little is good a lot is better attitude. Hope things are ok after the bit with the ladder. Diesel, I met a guy named Jack King about 15 years ago. He ran a gym in Winston-Salem, NC, put on some "natural" body building events, and competed on the "natural" circuit. He was pretty much opposed to the juice. He had some interesting stories from his days as a hard core lifter. The people that worked out and competed from his gym looked good all the time. I later moved to Bakersfield and worked out in a hard core gym there. Some of the folks that competed there looked fat except for the month or so leading up to their contest series. They were huge, but looked a lot like the drawings of early man from an anthropology book compete with big brow ridges and jutting jaws. It was a big difference from the W-S gym. Your description of the juiced vs non-juiced lifter earlier was right in line with that. Jim, Thanks for posting the Dr. Squat link.