Non Standard Workouts

[[old] bmoore]

I think you'll find the debate on squats has been and will be around for awhile. Everyone here has quoted the right sources on both sides of the issue, but it's not really something to beat each other up with.<br /><br />When I was a personal trainer, I didn't train my clients with squats. Leg presses, extensions, and curls were all I gave to the clients. At the same time, I personally trained with half squats. The potential liability of causing someone else injury limited my training advice. Also, I believe there is significant benefit to gain from other exercises that cover the quads, glutes, and calves without "needing" to do squats. (As mentioned earlier, it also seems that a leg press is a better replication of the motion on the erg).<br /><br />So, make your own decision on performing squats (none, half, or full), but remember that there are a significant amount highly qualified people that will warn against the potential for injury with full squats. Just because some people don't get injured over their lifetime of performing squats, doesn't mean you won't get injured.<br /><br />Consider starting with leg presses and extensions. Then try using the Smith machine for controlling the motion to learn proper technique. Body weight squats help with balance and strength, and will help you learn the proper technique. (I once tweaked my back demonstrating a squat with just the 45 pound bar, so learn control before adding too much weight).<br /><br />Regardless of what side you end up on this be cautious and avoid injury. Even if you're on the "right" side, getting hurt sucks.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Yoda1+Jul 25 2005, 10:59 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yoda1 @ Jul 25 2005, 10:59 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a person would be better off doing the full squats rather than parallel or half squats if for no other reason than by doing partials you've removed the hamstrings and glutes for the exercise.  </td></tr></table><br />That shows a lack of understanding of basic physiology.<br /><br />Without using the hamstrings and gluts, you would not be able to stand.<br /><br />Check out Lombard's Paradox.<br /><br />By the way there is not much of a squat action in a deadlift, and they most certainly do use and develop both the hamstrings and the gluts.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

Here is a video of Fred Hatfields "world record" (?) squat.<br /><br />If you're quick and can stop the video at the bottom, you will notice it is no more than a 1/2 squat at best, and nothing close to a full squat.<br /><br /><a href='http://www.drsquat.com/videos/1014VMHB.rm' target='_blank'>http://www.drsquat.com/videos/1014VMHB.rm</a>

[[old] John Rupp]

Here is Galabin Boevski, who snatched 358 and clean & jerked 432 pounds, at a body weight of 152.<br /><br /><img src='http://www.cbass.com/IMAGES/Boevski.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jul 25 2005, 02:31 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 25 2005, 02:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Yoda1+Jul 25 2005, 10:59 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yoda1 @ Jul 25 2005, 10:59 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a person would be better off doing the full squats rather than parallel or half squats if for no other reason than by doing partials you've removed the hamstrings and glutes for the exercise.  </td></tr></table><br />That shows a lack of understanding of basic physiology.<br /><br />Without using the hamstrings and gluts, you would not be able to stand.<br /><br />Check out Lombard's Paradox.<br /><br />By the way there is not much of a squat action in a deadlift, and they most certainly do use and develop both the hamstrings and the gluts. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /> <br /><br />That shows a lack of understanding of the English language.<br /><br />

[[old] John Rupp]

Boevski in 69kg weight class, in preparation position for the snatch.<br /><br /><img src='http://www.myogenic.de/gfx/boevski_snatch.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><br /><br />The day after competition he was seen doing a front squat with 441 pounds.<br /><br />These are much more difficult than back squats.

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jul 25 2005, 02:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 25 2005, 02:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here is a video of Fred Hatfields "world record" (?) squat.<br /><br />If you're quick and can stop the video at the bottom, you will notice it is no more than a 1/2 squat at best, and nothing close to a full squat.<br /><br /><a href='http://www.drsquat.com/videos/1014VMHB.rm' target='_blank'>http://www.drsquat.com/videos/1014VMHB.rm</a> <br /> </td></tr></table><br />So, folks, if you want to challenge Dr. Squat's record, you can do so by recording a ~1000 pound half squat. I don't think we have all that many serious powerlifters here, though. So, I'm not sure what this has to do with squat safety, unless it the advice is "Don't step under a 1000 pound barbell unless you train like Dr. Squat. It could be hazardous to your health." <br /><br />Porkchop

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Jul 25 2005, 11:07 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jul 25 2005, 11:07 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Squatting deep is not rocket science.  </td></tr></table><br />I surely hope no one takes such stupid advice and gets injured, because that is very likely what would happen.<br /><br />Anyone who wants to learn about full back squats should do so only under the direct supervision of an Olympic weight lifting coach, and I'm not recommending that anyone do that as they are certainly superfluous to anything meaningful other than competitive weightlifting competitions.

[[old] Yoda1]

Bill,<br />You are right about the debate regarding squats. It will go on forever, I'm sure. And I also agree with you about the leg press. But the point still remains, now pay attention John, that by only doing half or parallel squats the range of motion is limited and strength developed only through that paticular range. <br /><br />John,<br />You claim to have experience in Olympic lifting. Please explain to me how you perform a squat clean without hitting the bottom of a squat postion. You are the one that needs to review the sites and videos that you keep puttting up on this thread. Also, the rules of powerlifting site that a person must break parallel in order to have a fair lift. One other thing while I'm venting. We are not talking about how much someone can lift. We are talking about the range of motion and the disadvantages or advantages of performing the squat. Now please stick with the discussion.<br /><br />Porkchop,<br />My green tint is to aid in my hiding in tall grass. And my ears, pointed though they may be, assist in my ability to levitate. <br /><br />I'm trying hard not to yell.<br />Yoda

[[old] John Rupp]

Here is the workout style of Boevski, from various sources:<br /><br />"Galabin Boevski, the 152-pound Bulgarian lifter who snatched a record 358 and clean & jerked 432 in winning the 1999 world championship, does three workouts a day, using maximum poundages and a limited number of exercises. <br /><br />"In the morning, he works up to maximum singles in the snatch, clean and jerk and the front squat. In the afternoon, he does it again, sometimes lifting more than in the morning session. <br /><br />"He finishes with an evening session, where he repeats snatches and front squats, again lifting maximum poundages. The next day he does it again!"

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-Carl Henrik+Jul 25 2005, 12:47 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Carl Henrik @ Jul 25 2005, 12:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For "aerobic squats" there are very little empiric data that I am aware of. I think to progress this the only way would be to gather such, which I guess means doing it yourself. Perhaps I will give it a try at some point and tell how it felt. If it's bad...I just need to stop in time  <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Good idea, Carl Henrik. I would further suggest that if you have already subjected your ligaments and tendons to heavy loading with full weighted squats over a significant period, then you are additionally protected from injury during full bodyweight squats. I fully agree with the point you made that people who already have knee injuries should not be engaging in full squats, at least not without medical consultation. My empirical data (sample size one - me) on bodyweight squats supports the proposition that full bodyweight squats are not harmful to the knee. Let us know what you find out.<br /><br />Porkchop

[[old] bmoore]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jul 25 2005, 04:05 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 25 2005, 04:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Jul 25 2005, 11:07 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jul 25 2005, 11:07 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Squatting deep is not rocket science.  </td></tr></table><br />I surely hope no one takes such stupid advice and gets injured, because that is very likely what would happen.<br /><br />Anyone who wants to learn about full back squats should do so only under the direct supervision of an Olympic weight lifting coach, and I'm not recommending that anyone do that as they are certainly superfluous to anything meaningful other than competitive weightlifting competitions. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh, man. How did I end up on John's side of the fence on this one??? AHHHH!!!<br /><br />Although "squatting deep is not rocket science", I don't think the benefits of full squats out-weigh the possiblity of injury. Of course I'm a ex-paratrooper that screwed up my back hitting the earth too many times, so I tend to be cautious.

[[old] John Rupp]

Yoda,<br /><br />By walking, running, or jumping you are limiting the range of motion. By typing your message you were limiting the range of motion, or did you squat to the floor and leap up to the ceiling waving your arms with each key stroke?<br /><br />World record holder Javier Sotomayor knows how to jump, he knows how to prepare to jump, and he knows how to do squats that prepare him to jump a world record.<br /><br />You say you agree with Porkie, well that's fine. <br /><br />I will agree with Javier Sotomayor. After all, he has the world record and he knows what he's doing.<br /><br />I put up the weightlifting information to show that Porkie doesn't know what he's talking about. Power lifters don't do full squats. Yet he gives examples of how power lifters say that full squats are safe! That is bad advice, as well as his explanations of how to perform a squat. You don't think so?<br /><br />Yes doing a full squat is grazing your butt to the floor and doing a squat clean you get in the lowest position. Those, at least the front squat, are certainly pertinent to Olympic weightlifting, but full back squats have nothing to do with rowing and it would probably be counter productive to do them with that aim in mind.<br /><br /><br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Jul 25 2005, 01:14 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jul 25 2005, 01:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My empirical data (sample size one - me) on bodyweight squats supports the proposition that full bodyweight squats are not harmful to the knee.  </td></tr></table><br />More bad advice.<br /><br />Even Fred Hatfield says they are dangerous and can pull apart ligament and tendon attachments.<br /><br />You have stated that full squats are safer without bouncing.<br /><br />Well Hatfield says they are more dangerous when you stop at the bottom!!!<br /><br />Who is right, you or Hatfield? Come on Yoda, tell me you agree with Porkchop again.

[[old] bmoore]

<!--QuoteBegin-Yoda1+Jul 25 2005, 04:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yoda1 @ Jul 25 2005, 04:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bill,<br />You are right about the debate regarding squats.  It will go on forever, I'm sure.  And I also agree with you about the leg press.  But the point still remains, now pay attention John, that by only doing half or parallel squats the range of motion is limited and strength developed only through that paticular range.  <br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think the strength can be developed through the full range using leg presses where the weight is coming down on you. (Hammer Stregth calls is a linear leg press). This takes my back problem pretty much out of the equation, so I have to admit my bias toward this machine. I realize I'm not using all of the stabilizing muscles or my lower back, but as far as the glutes, quads, calves, and hammys are concerned, I feel this is actually a better pure leg workout.<br /><br />So technically you're right, but I think there's a safer way to the same result. (With exceptions reserved for those who "need" to do the Olympic type lifts).