Why The Censorship?

[old] andyArvid · Post by **[old] andyArvid** » February 4th, 2005, 7:45 am

Just correcting a few "facts":<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>By the same logic, we Americans should be eternally grateful to France because Admiral de Grasse showed up with the French fleet off the Yorktown peninsula in 1781. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />The amazing thing is that it took the French Navy 4 years to show up after promising support. The French were more interested in extending the conflict than resolving it.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>by that time, the religious wars were long over in Europe and most serious religious persecution had ended. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I take it that the Holocaust was not a serious religious persecution.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>nor did the Scandinavians and (North) Germans come to escape from Lutheranism. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />My great-grandfather (the Arvid in my name comes from him) and his family (in fact almost his whole town) left Sweden in 1880 to escape persecution because they were not Lutheran. Similarly my great-grandmother and her family (a different town). Both were Calvinist (Presbyterian). They met where many non-Lutheran Swedes chose to settle, Worcester, Mass.

[old] Porkchop · Post by **[old] Porkchop** » February 4th, 2005, 8:39 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TRIBUM @ Feb 4 2005, 02:54 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:10 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TRIBUM @ Feb 3 2005, 11:34 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>They should also be grateful, because without America they'd be speaking Russian or German. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />This is a perfect example of the problem. Your statement is true, but World War II was over almost 60 years ago. The bulk of the Americans who did the saving are dead, as are a substantial share of the saved. At some point, it becomes a lot less personal and a lot more historical. <br /><br />By the same logic, we Americans should be eternally grateful to France because Admiral de Grasse showed up with the French fleet off the Yorktown peninsula in 1781. I have noticed that our gratitude for that seems to have fallen by the wayside when the French had the temerity to disagree with American foreign policy some 222 years later. As a matter of fact, we were at war with France by 1801 or so. <br /><br />The fact is that our forebears helped their forebears, and vice versa. That's nice, but telling a contemporary Frenchman that he personally, not to mention his entire country, owes a debt of gratitude to contemporary America because of something that happened 60 years ago is pushing the limits in my view.<br /><br />To personalize it a bit -- suppose I grab you and pull you back from the curb just before a bus is about to run you over. I'm sure you'd be grateful, but if I reminded you of it once a day for years afterwards, I bet you'd eventually get sick of hearing about it. Imagine then that my child took up the practice of reminding your child on a regular basis for years after that. That would get old VERY quickly. Besides, although your child theoretically might owe <b>me</b> a debt of gratitude for saving his father, your child would owe my child nothing, because my child had nothing to do with the incident.<br /><br />Some peoples and countries probably should be very grateful to the United States on a lot of fronts, but we lose a lot of good will when we constantly remind them of it.<br /><br /><br />Porkchop <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You don't like America do you? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Questioning your logic equals hating America? The hole only gets deeper. <br /><br />Porkchop

[old] Porkchop · Post by **[old] Porkchop** » February 4th, 2005, 9:01 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(andyArvid @ Feb 4 2005, 06:45 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Just correcting a few "facts":<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>By the same logic, we Americans should be eternally grateful to France because Admiral de Grasse showed up with the French fleet off the Yorktown peninsula in 1781. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />The amazing thing is that it took the French Navy 4 years to show up after promising support. The French were more interested in extending the conflict than resolving it.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>by that time, the religious wars were long over in Europe and most serious religious persecution had ended. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I take it that the Holocaust was not a serious religious persecution.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>nor did the Scandinavians and (North) Germans come to escape from Lutheranism. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />My great-grandfather (the Arvid in my name comes from him) and his family (in fact almost his whole town) left Sweden in 1880 to escape persecution because they were not Lutheran. Similarly my great-grandmother and her family (a different town). Both were Calvinist (Presbyterian). They met where many non-Lutheran Swedes chose to settle, Worcester, Mass. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />1. <b>When</b> the French fleet showed up is irrelevant to the point I made.<br /><br />2. Actually, the Holocaust was <i>ethnic</i> persecution. During the religious wars of the 16th and 17th centuries, the point, generally speaking, was to force the opposing side to renounce Catholicism or Protestantism. In most cases, when that end was accomplished the violence ended. By contrast, during the Holocaust, the Jews were killed because of who the were, not what they believed; their religiosity was irrelevant to the persecution. They couldn't escape persecution by converting. Equally reprehensible, but a different issue.<br /><br />3. I'm sorry to hear about your great-grandfather's experience. "Serious" is an imprecise term, and any religious persecution is serious to the people affected. Perhaps, "wide-spread, systemic, and state-sanctioned" would be a better description; the point is that the post-Reformation religious wars ended in 1648(?) with the Peace of Westphalia. By about 1800 or so, the concepts that everyone in the country had to hold the same religious beliefs as the ruler and that there had to be one universal church were more or less dead. Generally, burning heretics at the stake was a thing of the past. I agree that discriminatory conduct still occurred.<br /><br />My Danish and Norwegian ancestors came here for economic reasons, not to escape Lutheranism; the great bulk of the sizable Scandinavian population in my home town did the same. I on the other hand moved far away to escape ... The point of my post was that the <b>bulk</b> of immigration to the United States had little to do with religion and much to do with economic opportunity.<br /><br />Now, can we get back to Janet Jackson?<br /><br />Porkchop

[old] Porkchop · Post by **[old] Porkchop** » February 4th, 2005, 9:24 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(sivkoburko @ Feb 4 2005, 04:42 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TRIBUM @ Feb 3 2005, 11:34 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>They should also be grateful, because without America they'd be speaking Russian or German. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The problem with this normative "Europe <i>should</i> be grateful" attitude is that it seems very, very arrogant and narrow-minded. To give an analogy, it's the difference between someone constantly talking about what an excellent, morally upstanding, charitable person s/he is and someone who goes and gets on with helping people, allowing their deeds to speak for themselves. They can both be decent people, but the first one is pretty likely to irritate the [insert word of choice] out of alot of people who start thinking "great, you're a decent bloke you say, then stop telling me how great you are and go and get on with it!"<br /><br />It takes two to tango and if Americans want to stop getting bashed, then a good first stop would be to stop proclaiming that they're right and that anyone who doesn't agree is simply stupid, wrong or evil; tolerance and a respect for diversity are, in theory, key features of the "free world" - as is the basic principle of not offending people unnecessarily, so I'll respect the fact that some people are Christian fundamentalists if they respect my right to be agnostic. So simple in theory, yet never quite works out in practice...<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well-stated (better than my post). Thank you.<br /><br />Porkchop

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » February 4th, 2005, 9:35 am

Craig,<br />It would seem that by the responses of quite a few, that my point has been made very clear.<br /><br />Instead of just visiting other countries, try living there. Get to know the people, their background, their culture. Visiting is fine if you want to see people superficially, but it won't let you experience what they're truely about.<br /><br />I've been to Paris twice to visit. And I could easily sum up the French by the experiences I got from the Parisians (even the French know what I mean by that), but that wouldn't really be fair.<br /><br />I had the same attitude you do now until I actually experienced what other cultures are about. It humbles man. Quickly!!<br /><br /><br />Until you traveled in another man's shoes....<br /><br /><br />Dwayne

[old] andyArvid · Post by **[old] andyArvid** » February 4th, 2005, 11:06 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 4 2005, 10:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(andyArvid @ Feb 4 2005, 06:45 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Just correcting a few "facts":<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>By the same logic, we Americans should be eternally grateful to France because Admiral de Grasse showed up with the French fleet off the Yorktown peninsula in 1781. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />The amazing thing is that it took the French Navy 4 years to show up after promising support. The French were more interested in extending the conflict than resolving it.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>by that time, the religious wars were long over in Europe and most serious religious persecution had ended. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I take it that the Holocaust was not a serious religious persecution.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>nor did the Scandinavians and (North) Germans come to escape from Lutheranism. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />My great-grandfather (the Arvid in my name comes from him) and his family (in fact almost his whole town) left Sweden in 1880 to escape persecution because they were not Lutheran. Similarly my great-grandmother and her family (a different town). Both were Calvinist (Presbyterian). They met where many non-Lutheran Swedes chose to settle, Worcester, Mass. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />1. <b>When</b> the French fleet showed up is irrelevant to the point I made.<br /><br />2. Actually, the Holocaust was <i>ethnic</i> persecution. During the religious wars of the 16th and 17th centuries, the point, generally speaking, was to force the opposing side to renounce Catholicism or Protestantism. In most cases, when that end was accomplished the violence ended. By contrast, during the Holocaust, the Jew were killed because of who the were, not what they believed; their religiosity was irrelevant to the persecution. They couldn't escape persecution by converting. Equally reprehensible, but a different issue.<br /><br />3. I'm sorry to hear about your great-grandfather's experience. "Serious" is an imprecise term, and any religious persecution is serious to the people affected. Perhaps, "wide-spread, systemic, and state-sanctioned" would be a better description; the point is that the post-Reformation religious wars ended in 1648(?) with the peace of Westphalia. By about 1800 or so, the concepts that everyone in the country had to hold the same religious beliefs as the ruler amd that there had to be one universal church were more or less dead. Generally, burning heretics at the stake was a thing of the past. I agree that discriminatory conduct still occurred.<br /><br />My Danish and Norwegian ancestors came here for economic reasons, not to escape Lutheranism; the great bulk of the sizable Scandinavian population in my home town did the same. I on the other hand moved far away to escape ... The point of my post was that the <b>bulk</b> of immigration to the United States had little to do with religion and much to do with economic opportunity.<br /><br />Now, can we get back to Janet Jackson?<br /><br />Porkchop <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />1. It was a side comment. We shouldn't be so grateful to the French. They were acting in their own self interest as much as the American (or any other) government acts today.<br /><br />2. Yes the holocaust was also an ethnic persecution. Gypsies were targeted too. But with the Jews it would be difficult to separate between religious and ethnic persecution. The holocaust certainly had a strong current of religious persecution.<br /><br />3. My point is that it did exists. Whole towns left Sweden. And not in insignificant numbers. Sweden is 87% Lutheran for a reason (used to be over 90%). The town my great-grandfather came from does not exist anymore. My sister tried to visit it. The town of my great-grandmother still exists and she did visit that town. <br /><br />Actually I was not and do not disagree that the majority of American immigration occurred for economic reasons not religious reasons. I was just disagreeing with your overstatement of the facts supporting it.<br /><br />andy

[old] Cran · Post by **[old] Cran** » February 4th, 2005, 11:37 am

**** **** ****** **** **** *** **** *****?

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » February 4th, 2005, 12:14 pm

H_O_L_Y C_R_A_P!<br /><br />Now, do we want to talk about religion too?

[old] peterb · Post by **[old] peterb** » February 4th, 2005, 12:30 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Now, can we get back to Janet Jackson?<br /><br />Porkchop <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes we can!!<br /><br />Has anyone seen the BUDWISER Super Bowl Commercial that was pulled (not cencored)<br />revealing the real behind Janet's wardrobe failure???<br /><br />peterb

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » February 4th, 2005, 12:31 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(peterb @ Feb 4 2005, 11:30 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Now, can we get back to Janet Jackson?<br /><br />Porkchop <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes we can!!<br /><br />Has anyone seen the BUDWISER Super Bowl Commercial that was pulled (not cencored)<br />revealing the real behind Janet's wardrobe failure???<br /><br />peterb <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes. Very funny. For all those interested, you can see it at budlight.com<br />

[old] peterb · Post by **[old] peterb** » February 4th, 2005, 3:16 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Feb 4 2005, 11:31 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(peterb @ Feb 4 2005, 11:30 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Now, can we get back to Janet Jackson?<br /><br />Porkchop <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes we can!!<br /><br />Has anyone seen the BUDWISER Super Bowl Commercial that was pulled (not cencored)<br />revealing the real behind Janet's wardrobe failure???<br /><br />peterb <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes. Very funny. For all those interested, you can see it at budlight.com <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Just thought I'd add the link to make things easier!!!!<br /><br /><a href='http://www.budlight.com/' target='_blank'>http://www.budlight.com/</a><br /><br />Interesting tidbit, the web site states you must be 21 to enter and you have to input a birthdate<br />that reflects you are 21. <br /><br />Is this another case of CENSORSHIP????????<br /><br />Oh h*** (just thought I'd give it a try)<br /><br />peterb

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » February 4th, 2005, 3:36 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Feb 3 2005, 02:54 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thanks go to George for this interesting topic. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />All I did was type in the word 'h***' and all this started --- jeez good thing it was not a serious question <br /><br />George<br />

[old] Svend · Post by **[old] Svend** » February 4th, 2005, 4:01 pm

Clearly, this string has opened up a maw of emotions, historical perspectives, etc.<br />What is clear is that while people have friends, nations have interests. Friendship often lasts longer than national interestts. The two should not be confused. <br /><br />I recently retired as a Naval Officer after serving for nearly 24 years in naval aviation, am the son of Danish immigrants, and have travelled, and lived extensively throughout Europe and, to a lesser degree, Asia. I'm proud of my nation the majority of the time, but do not labor under the impression that America is always right in her courses of action. There is an equally false impression that America is always wrong in her courses of action. I do believe that our national interests generally favor doing the best with what we have at that point in time. Often that effort conflicts with our nation's bests interests ... but not always. Any government that routinely neglects its national interests puts that nation in some degree of extremis. If two, or more, nations have common interests then by all means it is in their best interest to cooperate. Those interests ebb and flow over the course of time. The European/American history of cooperation has been unique since it has lasted, and I believe in the main will continue to last, for a relatively long time based upon mutuall intersts. <br /><br />What I've observed is that personal relationships flourish regardless of governmental relationships and are often more enduring. Common bonds typically breed strong relationships that often do not vary. But, like national interests, they can ebb and flow over time as well. We've all had friendships that <br /><br />As far as censorship in America goes ... I agree that we perhaps censor the wrong things. All things being what they are, I'm pretty fond of breasts and would rather watch them on the telly than a murder - h*** - if I can type that - I might even go out and by a high definition TV if that was the case.<br /><br />Lighten up. Row hard. Have fun with each other.

[old] little weed · Post by **[old] little weed** » February 4th, 2005, 4:05 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 4 2005, 12:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>telling a contemporary Frenchman that he personally, not to mention his entire country, owes a debt of gratitude to contemporary America because of something that happened 60 years ago is pushing the limits in my view. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />being a brit fortunate enough to own a home in normandy, it is my experience that wherever you go in this region of france the gratitude is very much alive and kicking. i saw much evidence of that during the d-day celebrations/re-enactments last june.<br /><br />but i think porkchop is absolutely right; they don't need reminding that they should be grateful because it's taken as read. and i think it probably does irritate, unless maybe the reminder comes from someone who was on the landing beaches. but i think anyone who was there wouldn't feel the need to do any reminding.<br /><br />sorry to drag you away from janet jackson's finer points. just having a bit of a shout!<br /><br />jane

[old] Porkchop · Post by **[old] Porkchop** » February 4th, 2005, 7:26 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(peterb @ Feb 4 2005, 02:16 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Feb 4 2005, 11:31 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(peterb @ Feb 4 2005, 11:30 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Feb 3 2005, 10:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Now, can we get back to Janet Jackson?<br /><br />Porkchop <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes we can!!<br /><br />Has anyone seen the BUDWISER Super Bowl Commercial that was pulled (not cencored)<br />revealing the real behind Janet's wardrobe failure???<br /><br />peterb <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes. Very funny. For all those interested, you can see it at budlight.com <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Just thought I'd add the link to make things easier!!!!<br /><br /><a href='http://www.budlight.com/' target='_blank'>http://www.budlight.com/</a><br /><br />Interesting tidbit, the web site states you must be 21 to enter and you have to input a birthdate<br />that reflects you are 21. <br /><br />Is this another case of CENSORSHIP????????<br /><br />Oh h*** (just thought I'd give it a try)<br /><br />peterb <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Very clever ad -- can't say much for the beer, though. <br /><br />I'm a former naval officer myself, so I'll go Svend one better -- I'm fond of <u><i><b>both breasts and beer!</b></i></u> <br /><br />Porkchop