Wolverine Plan Discussion

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » November 15th, 2005, 10:59 pm

I did my first Level 1 work out today. My reference pace is supposed to be 1:57. I've been using 1:55 for Levels 3 & 4, but tonight is supposed to be telling me what reference pace to use. It was 8 x 500 with 2:42 rest (my recovery rate is supposed to be 2:42, so I just used that for the rest time). I did active rest, but that made me worry a bit. Are you supposed to stop and make sure the fly wheel is stopped before each interval in Level 1? Anyway, I didn't, so there's that impact to consider. Each new interval started with either really silly slow paces showing up, like 2:08, or even sillier fast ones, like 1:47. It wasn't as consistent as it should be, since this is my first attempt at this workout and I wasn't sure what I could do at all: 1:56.2 28 spm 1:53.4 28 spm (this one showed 1:47 at the start, so I don't think this is right) 1:56.6 27 spm 1:56.6 26 spm 1:54.7 26 spm 1:54.7 26 spm 1:54.1 26 spm 1:53.1 27 spm The average is 1:52.5 and 26.5ish spm. Any idea what I should use as a reference pace? Should I just repeat this workout next week, trying to be more consistent, and then decide? Thanks to anyone who has the time to think about this, and also, about the stopped flywheel deal.

[old] joanvb · Post by **[old] joanvb** » November 15th, 2005, 11:21 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 15 2005, 09:59 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> The average is 1:52.5 and 26.5ish spm. Any idea what I should use as a reference pace? Should I just repeat this workout next week, trying to be more consistent, and then decide? Thanks to anyone who has the time to think about this, and also, about the stopped flywheel deal. </td></tr></table> Carla, I've copied below what Mike wrote on page 6 of this thread. It might answer your questions...at least about the flywheel. Joan VB "For a workout like 8 x 500m, a simple method (as described in the original WP document) is to take the average pace from the previous time you completed the workout, and begin the new workout at that pace, bringing it down for the final 2-3 intervals to finish with a new, lower average. Then repeat the format next time you do the same workout. This works fairly well, especially earlier in the season when you’re not exactly sure how hard to push, and you will probably make large gains initially. But I caution against going too hard too often, and someone who pushes too hard too soon in the season will probably plateau early. After the first couple times with this workout in a given season, I settle into choosing a goal pace that is on average 1 tenth of a sec faster per 500m for every week since I last did the workout. If I finish a little ahead of my goal, I’ll readjust my target for next time. So, last week my target for 8 x 500m was 1:33.0; my actual average pace ended up 1:32.8; in two more weeks, when I do the workout again, my target will be 1:32.5. When I do this workout, I take about 3 ½ minutes recovery (most of it active) between pieces. I don’t set a recovery time on the monitor, but keep track manually. I start each interval from a dead stop, with the flywheel nearly motionless, and use the opportunity to practice racing starts. Not to start as fast as I can, but to see how quickly/smoothly I can settle into a desired pace. I also set the 500m with 250m sub-intervals to see if I pace the piece correctly; my goal being to negative- or even-split (not positive-split)..."

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » November 16th, 2005, 12:08 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 15 2005, 10:59 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I did my first Level 1 work out today. My reference pace is supposed to be 1:57. I've been using 1:55 for Levels 3 & 4, but tonight is supposed to be telling me what reference pace to use. It was 8 x 500 with 2:42 rest (my recovery rate is supposed to be 2:42, so I just used that for the rest time). I did active rest, but that made me worry a bit. Are you supposed to stop and make sure the fly wheel is stopped before each interval in Level 1? Anyway, I didn't, so there's that impact to consider. Each new interval started with either really silly slow paces showing up, like 2:08, or even sillier fast ones, like 1:47. It wasn't as consistent as it should be, since this is my first attempt at this workout and I wasn't sure what I could do at all: 1:56.2 28 spm 1:53.4 28 spm (this one showed 1:47 at the start, so I don't think this is right) 1:56.6 27 spm 1:56.6 26 spm 1:54.7 26 spm 1:54.7 26 spm 1:54.1 26 spm 1:53.1 27 spm The average is 1:52.5 and 26.5ish spm. Any idea what I should use as a reference pace? Should I just repeat this workout next week, trying to be more consistent, and then decide? Thanks to anyone who has the time to think about this, and also, about the stopped flywheel deal. </td></tr></table> Carla, For this workout, there's not enough rest for the flywheel to stop. Regardless, for this workout, you should just be consistent, and start lowering your average pace like Joan mentioned. I'd try to get consistent next time. I'm not sure how you got an average 1:52.5 when none of your splits were below this. Can you clarify or double check the splits on this please. If you're referring to the L4 reference pace, then I'd try to set it with a 4x1k instead of the 8x500. There's enough of an difference in endurance to make the 4x1k a better indicator of 2k times, and thus your L4 reference pace. If you truly did 1:52.5 average pace, then I'd use a 1:55 for your L4 ref pace as you had been doing. (I'm assuming you can do a 1:52 8x500 which loosly translates into a 1:55 2k potential or a 1:56 4x1k potential. The correlation between these times is based on the feedback I've personally done with these and the feedback from other users on the forum). Let us know how the other workouts go. Regards,

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 16th, 2005, 12:40 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(bmoore @ Nov 15 2005, 08:08 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I'm not sure how you got an average 1:52.5 when none of your splits were below this. [right] </td></tr></table> Bill, This is part of the magic of the Wolverine Plan.

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » November 16th, 2005, 1:57 am

Hi Bill, I'm mathematically challenged! You're right, that's got to be a wrong average. I added up all the seconds (i.e. 56.2, etc) and divided by 60 to get minutes and then added all the leftover minutes (the ones). Then I used the pace calculator--I put in the total minutes and set the distance at 4000m. I think what happened is when I divided by 60 to get the minutes, it came out with a decimal and maybe I got confused and thought the decimal was seconds. Saw a great T shirt the other day. It said "Help! I'm so confused!...wait a minute. Maybe I'm not" The actual average is 1:54.9. Joan, Thanks for that snippet. I kept looking through everything I had and couldn't find the bit about the flywheel. Then I llooked at the clock and realized if I kept thrashing around looking for it I'd mess up being able to fit the workout in between other obligations and end up rowing really late at night or skipping it. I'll go with 3 minutes active rest and then give it 30 seconds to pretty much stop. That will eliminate the wierd readings at the beginning of each peice, too, I guess.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 16th, 2005, 2:24 am

The flywheel takes 3 minutes to stop if you dont row at all in between, and when you are rowing slowly that keeps the flywheel moving on, so it is not going to be stopped when you are rowing slowly in between unless you do nothing at all for 3 minutes. It wont be stopped rowing even 10 minutes in between if you are having an active rest though but just for just a workout that doesn't make much difference if it is still moving a little bit, unless you are doing a timed 500m piece and then it needs to be stopped. For an average I usually take the lowest number and then count from there. We did this in track all the time so I'm used to it. For example yours are close to 1:54 but looks like higher than that so we can count from there in tenths of a second. 1:56.2 ... + 22 1:53.4 .... - 06 = 16 1:56.6 ... + 26 = 42 1:56.6 ... + 26 = 68 1:54.7 ... + 07 = 75 1:54.7 ... + 07 = 82 1:54.1 ... + 01 = 83 1:53.1 .... - 09 = 74 74 / 8 = 9.25 tenths 1:54 + .925 = 1:54.93 or however you want to round it.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » November 16th, 2005, 9:12 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 16 2005, 01:57 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hi Bill, I'm mathematically challenged! You're right, that's got to be a wrong average. I added up all the seconds (i.e. 56.2, etc) and divided by 60 to get minutes and then added all the leftover minutes (the ones). Then I used the pace calculator--I put in the total minutes and set the distance at 4000m. I think what happened is when I divided by 60 to get the minutes, it came out with a decimal and maybe I got confused and thought the decimal was seconds. Saw a great T shirt the other day. It said "Help! I'm so confused!...wait a minute. Maybe I'm not" The actual average is 1:54.9. Joan, Thanks for that snippet. I kept looking through everything I had and couldn't find the bit about the flywheel. Then I llooked at the clock and realized if I kept thrashing around looking for it I'd mess up being able to fit the workout in between other obligations and end up rowing really late at night or skipping it. I'll go with 3 minutes active rest and then give it 30 seconds to pretty much stop. That will eliminate the wierd readings at the beginning of each peice, too, I guess. </td></tr></table> Awesome interval calulator someone posted a while back (thanks, whoever you were!). You can put in full interval times (i.e. as in format 1:51.2), and it does the math automatically based on number of entries. Works for splits and whole pieces: <a href='http://www.machars.net/spi.php' target='_blank'>http://www.machars.net/spi.php</a>

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » November 16th, 2005, 7:06 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 16 2005, 06:24 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The flywheel takes 3 minutes to stop if you dont row at all in between, and when you are rowing slowly that keeps the flywheel moving on, so it is not going to be stopped when you are rowing slowly in between unless you do nothing at all for 3 minutes. It wont be stopped rowing even 10 minutes in between if you are having an active rest though but just for just a workout that doesn't make much difference if it is still moving a little bit, unless you are doing a timed 500m piece and then it needs to be stopped. For an average I usually take the lowest number and then count from there. We did this in track all the time so I'm used to it. For example yours are close to 1:54 but looks like higher than that so we can count from there in tenths of a second. 1:56.2 ... + 22 1:53.4 .... - 06 = 16 1:56.6 ... + 26 = 42 1:56.6 ... + 26 = 68 1:54.7 ... + 07 = 75 1:54.7 ... + 07 = 82 1:54.1 ... + 01 = 83 1:53.1 .... - 09 = 74 74 / 8 = 9.25 tenths 1:54 + .925 = 1:54.93 or however you want to round it. </td></tr></table> That is a MUCH better way than the way I did it! thanks.

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » November 16th, 2005, 7:07 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Awesome interval calulator someone posted a while back (thanks, whoever you were!). You can put in full interval times (i.e. as in format 1:51.2), and it does the math automatically based on number of entries. Works for splits and whole pieces: </td></tr></table> And this is even better! I bookmarked it.

[old] kjgress · Post by **[old] kjgress** » November 17th, 2005, 1:38 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 15 2005, 09:59 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>. Each new interval started with either really silly slow paces showing up, like 2:08, or even sillier fast ones, like 1:47. </td></tr></table> Carla: Do you have any of the beta tests loaded on your erg computer? If you set the workout up as an interval series on the regular PM3 you can get the fluctuating values you are describing at the beginning of the pieces. The beta versions don't seem to be as plagued by this.

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » November 17th, 2005, 9:55 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(kjgress @ Nov 17 2005, 05:38 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 15 2005, 09:59 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>. Each new interval started with either really silly slow paces showing up, like 2:08, or even sillier fast ones, like 1:47. </td></tr></table> Carla: Do you have any of the beta tests loaded on your erg computer? If you set the workout up as an interval series on the regular PM3 you can get the fluctuating values you are describing at the beginning of the pieces. The beta versions don't seem to be as plagued by this. </td></tr></table> Alas, I am using the PM2. It beats the heck out of the PM1, which I had last year, but I'm sure I'd like the PM3 better. On the PM2, I can set it for intervals of 2 minutes, but I can't set a rest time of less than 10 seconds. This is what I've been doing, and in that 10 seconds I was resetting my metrenome. Yesterday I really annoyed myself by trying a different way. I decided to try not using a metrenome and see if I could just stick to the right rate without it, and set the PM2 for 10' intervals. It was really awful. First of all, I had the dickens of a time sticking to the right rate. It was awfully easy to become confused, because if I was too high by one stroke for a few strokes, a few times I got mixed up about which 2' I was in and corrected in the wrong direction (it was an alternating 16/18 sequence, so if I was on 17 by accident, sometimes I couldn't remember if I was trying to be on 16 or on 18.) I had music on and kept trying to go to the beat. (Before I had music on, but with the metrenome had no trouble at all being on the right rate.) I was doing 176/188/176/188/176/188, and after each 10' interval would reset for another 10'. Once I started doing 188 again by accident. And on the first 176, which should have been 16/18/20/18/16, I forgot the 20 and just did 16. I ended up 2 strokes high on the first 2 minutes, 4 strokes low on the 3rd 2 minutes, and 2 strokes low on the 4th 2 minutes, but 37 meters higher than the goal for the 10 minutes. Next time I think I'll do the 10' intervals, but use a metrenome and just change it as quickly as I can, so I won't have to have the stupid 10 seconds rest time. I really am starting to want Ergmonitor because it would be so cool to not have to reset the metrenome myself so there would be no interruptions. And even better not to have a limitation of only 20 splits remembered. I just have to figure out how I'm going to set up a computer near the erg.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » November 17th, 2005, 10:15 am

CONFESSIONS continued ... LEVEL 1 today. 4 x 1,000 Mike had mentioned not to try to improve too fast, even early on in using the Plan, because his experience showed that most people who did this plateaued quickly (I can only suppose that this has something to do with physiological conditioning science of which I am totally ignorant). Prior, my bext 4 x 1,000 had been done at an average pace of 1:53.8 when I had a target of 1:54.0 or better (Nov. 2). I was going to shoot for 1:51:0 or lower, but caught myself and reset the average target for 1:53.0 or better, shooting for: 1:53.0 1:52.8 1:52.6 1:52.4 Average: 1:52.7 Boy, was I glad I did! I did: 1:52.9/31 1:52.6/32 1:52.5/34 (banging slides) 1:52.0/33 Average: 1:52.5 All with 1,000M active recovery at 2:30 pace or better (5 minutes or less rest). While a very good workout, going any faster would have been really, really pushing it for me, so I'm beginning to finally get to what I refer to as my "current training limit". I expect I'll be religious about following Mike's advice on lowering targets for these workouts by only several tenths of a second pace, on average, for each week between these similar intervals. Carla, this is the second time I've done this specific workout, and I'm just getting to the point where I feel like, "OK, this is a good workout and the paces make sense." My sense is that after a month or so on the Plan, we'll both feel good about the pacing, rates, etc. Until then, I share your pain in feeling somewhat uncoordinated and clumsy (especially on L4s!). -- Mark

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » November 17th, 2005, 10:46 pm

Carla, Try doing 60' with 6 splits. You'll have to keep track of the rate changes for each progression, but I'm getting to the point of memorizing them. (I thought Mike was crazy when he said this, but after 2 workouts, I'm seeing that it can be done. Heck, each time I have 60 minutes of staring at this stuff, so eventually it does sink in). No rest between these splits. This is supposed to be endurance training, not 30 sets of 2'. I'd really recommend getting rid of the metronome, especially if you can't hit the paces without it. It's a good tool, but it can become a crutch. I found it took some time, but now the rates are easy to hit in 2-3 strokes. I'm using RowPro and get all of the feedback I need on the rates, distance, pace, and number of strokes for each set. (Number of strokes is distance divided by Average distance per stroke). Try using 10' splits and no metronone for 2 weeks or 6 L4 workouts. I'm pretty sure you'll get the hang of it in that amount of time. Rowing by feel and using the feedback from your PM to fine tune your stroke just seems more natural.

[old] kjgress · Post by **[old] kjgress** » November 18th, 2005, 12:22 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 17 2005, 08:55 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> On the PM2, I can set it for intervals of 2 minutes I was doing 176/188/176/188/176/188, and after each 10' interval would reset for another 10'. Once I started doing 188 again by accident. And on the first 176, which should have been 16/18/20/18/16, I forgot the 20 and just did 16. I ended up 2 strokes high on the first 2 minutes, 4 strokes low on the 3rd 2 minutes, and 2 strokes low on the 4th 2 minutes, but 37 meters higher than the goal for the 10 minutes. </td></tr></table> Carla: Setting up the workout with intervals is where you will get the weird numbers at the beginning. Try and do the workout as a continuous 60' piece. If the Pm2 will let you change the split length then make the split length 2 minutes. If it won't you will have to work around the split length. Most recently I have gone to this format and I get 30 2 minute splits for the workout (I don't know how long I'll do it like this; it's a lot of splits to go through and it does give a very accurate picture but it's not something that needs to be done every workout once you get the hang of it). I agree that you need to stop with the metronome; you will eventually get the pace by yourself. It might help to take a small piece of paper with the workout written on it and tape it to the computer. For example just write down 176/188/176/188/176/188. If you need to also write 176: 16/18/20/18/16 and 188:18/20/18/20/18. You will probably remember the required pace for each spm, but if not, jot that down also. To keep yourself occupied, count the strokes for each 10 minutes and try to keep each 30 seconds on rate. For example the first 10 minute piece is 176. After 30 sec you should have counted 8 strokes, after a minute, 16. After 1:30 you should be at 25 and after 2 minutes 34. After 10 minutes you should be at 176. With the next stroke begin again at 1 and count up through the next sequence. Another method is to count each 2 minute set and reset the count after 2 minutes. Sometimes this method makes the time go faster. It's amazing how fast a 60 minute set can go by when you are counting every 30 seconds. After a couple of workouts you will begin to get very close to the rate.

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » November 18th, 2005, 9:34 am

PM2 only remembers 20 splits. So to get an accurate picture of what I'm doing, at the very least I have to do a 40' and a 20'. Believe it or not, I had all that written down on a white board; the sequence (176 or whatever) and the 2's (16/18/etc) but somehow got on the wrong line or at the wrong place in the sequence...it was like sight reading music and accidentally skipping a line or a measure. That was just a particularly stupid day for me, I think, because on other L4 days I didn't mess up that way. It was also my first day doing any 176's that have the 20 in the middle and I missed it more than once, thinking I was just alternating 16 and 18. I'm doing the same L4 tonight, but I won't have music on, which makes me want to go to that beat, and I'll try again without the metrenome. I think the best I can do is 40' + 20'; and if I dont take a few seconds to write down the results in between them I won't really know how I did. Or would 30' + 30' be better? thanks, Bill, Mark, & KJ. I'm sure I'll look back on all this aggravation a few weeks from now and be amazed at how difficult it seemed just to follow the workout properly! L3 last night, 10K at 2:06.5, 23.5 spm--didn't have time for a whole 12K plus warm up and cool down.

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