What Strength Training Have You Done Today

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » April 19th, 2005, 1:05 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hey Jim, that site CrossFit looks very interesting, but really really weird. Are you a member? Do you use their principles to train? What is it all about? The site makes me nervous and uncomfortable, and they seem to hate on endurance athletes alot. But they appear to be in incredible shape, so I guess they must be doing something right. Care to explain? </td></tr></table> NOOOO. I somehow surfed this up. Here is a guide to their philosophy: <a href='http://media.crossfit.com/cf-download/Foundations.pdf' target='_blank'>http://media.crossfit.com/cf-download/F ... ons.pdf</a>. or this: <a href='http://media.crossfit.com/cf-download/CFJ-trial.pdf' target='_blank'>http://media.crossfit.com/cf-download/C ... pdf</a> Its a bit over the top, but then again I do see some of their points (and imagine it will trickle into my growing interest in being generally fit rather than specifically faster on the erg). I take in about everything. I guess I would describe it as a high-tech boot camp based lifestyle. Ged Musto, ex Special Forces Brit turned Personal Trainer, used to post much of this 'total fitness' to us erging monotypes who flail miserably at general fitness tests. It seems sort of cult like, but a lot of today's self improvment-based programs have that kind hype (good or bad). Seems very much bent on explosive combat power (and the police/military gearing suits this focus). Surely this is a great base for some rower to come from. We see some of these "cross training" fitness competition types over on the UK C2 site who are fantastic ergers (for what time they devote to the erg). The crossfit site is good inspiration since regardless of their gearing these guys are doing things that are out of this world. Rowers should realize how high the fitness bar really is.

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » April 19th, 2005, 4:44 pm

Starboard and Jim, Crossfit is not the direction you want to go. It's an all or nothing program. From what I've seen their belief is if it doesn't kill you, it will make you stronger. Several months ago someone from their site posted a message. When one of "ours" responded negatively to their solicitation on this site he was met with an attempt to put him down because he (ours) didn't agree with their beliefs. On another site, I had the same thing happen when I questioned their beliefs. Their response was so rude they were asked not to return to the site. Hey, there are many ways to train. Some good, some not so good. But having someone verbally abuse you while you are attempting to train is plain old BS. It is one thing to discuss different types of training to draw as much information as possible. It is entirely another matter when you put someone down because you don't like their training methods. Again, just my opinion. No Yelling! Yoda

[old] starboardrigged1seat · Post by **[old] starboardrigged1seat** » April 20th, 2005, 7:11 pm

Hey yoda thanks for your advice on the matter. I can see how their beliefs are really attractive, especially to the "do or die" young meatheads who think that being in shape is life, and anyone less "hardcore" than them is a pussy. However, some of their ideas, mainly about the important of the functionality of a lift, as well as the extreme emphasis on explosive movements are very important in my life. Rowing is my main sport, but I do extensive mountainbiking, trail running, and back-packing during the summer, as well as assorted life-guarding activities, such as kayaking, life guard competitions, ocean swimming, ocean boat rowing. I think that the best approach is a balanced one, that doesn't disregard traditional knowledge, but one that incorporates innovative techniques such as super slow, as well as explosive multi-joint lifts. Also, against their philosophy, I happen to believe that extended endurance bouts need to be trained specifically. Oh well....anyone care to discuss?

[old] JaneW. · Post by **[old] JaneW.** » April 20th, 2005, 7:49 pm

I'll jump in although I ought to be focusing on other things. This topic is too interesting for me to let go. I do not know their way of treating people but Yoda's implication of "tearing you down and building you back up the military way" does not suit some beginners and can be abusive emotionally and mentally. However, from their website, Crossfit seems to have helped some achieve their fitness goals. I also agree with Starboard that endurance training sessions are valuable but from my experience, certain body types are suited for endurance events while others are better at shorter, explosive events. This is why track coaches are constantly checking to see which event to place a potential athlete in. For myself, my coach could not decide whether to place me in the 400 meter or 800 meter event. As for Crossfit, I am glad that Jim shared this site. Their videos reveal good form and technique in many weightlifting and powerlifting movements. Also, the L-pullups are done in a controlled movement . I do this one in my strength exercises. Furthermore, their gymnastic component is valuable for dance training especially when trying to choreograph a piece. Many audiences want to see spectacular feats along with graceful, fluid, sensual moves. Cirque du Soleil is a wonderful example of implementing some of Crossfit's principles. Dance is an incredibly athletic endeavor and the general population often do not know the amount of training and pain dancers go through. The bar keeps getting raised higher and higher with each new piece of training information. The one thing that I like to add to their principles is their flexilbility training. Bob Anderson is a great resource for stretching but so is yoga and dance stretches.

[old] JaneW. · Post by **[old] JaneW.** » April 20th, 2005, 9:48 pm

There is another part of Crossfit which I don't understand. They do not claim Mark Allen, IronMan triathlete, to be fittest man on earth but places decathlete Simon Poelman on a higher level. How can you compare apples and oranges? Goodness! Each sport requires a different muscle, emotional, and mental ability. Each man has trained specifically for several totally different sports. If their definition of "fittest man on earth" does not apply to Marcus Allen, then are they discounting other professional's definition of fitness? We all have different standards to live by and for some to dictate certain principles as the absoulte can certainly be disconcerting. But then, we're talking about selling a product here, aren't we? ( I had better take a break from this forum which can be quite addicting. )

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » April 20th, 2005, 10:07 pm

That is interesting, as I was thinking of how ----terrible---- their form was.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » April 20th, 2005, 10:10 pm

They must have some other measurement. However I've never heard of Simon Poelman. What is his time for the marathon?

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » April 20th, 2005, 10:13 pm

Crossfit seems pretty bad ass. Most of those lifts are the kind of training I do anyway. In short, that kind of training makes you strong and hard. They hate on endurance athletes because endurance athletes (many of them) do very little if any weight training at all. Which is unbalanced, to say the least. I mean who wants to look like a long-distance runner? No thanks. If you're an athlete, cross-fit style training is exactly the kind of training you should be doing. Super functional and way better than standard bodybuilding crap - which is pretty much "all show, no go". I would also argue that a world-class decathlete is "fitter" that a world class triathlete - in short, triathletes are one-dimensional (endurance), while a decathlete has to be, by the very nature of the events, a complete athlete with high-level skills across the spectrum of athletic fitness. In short, a world class decathlete can make the transition to triathlons much better than a triathlete make the jump to the decathlon. That's what make them the superior athletes. D

[old] starboardrigged1seat · Post by **[old] starboardrigged1seat** » April 20th, 2005, 11:32 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Apr 20 2005, 09:13 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Crossfit seems pretty bad ass. Most of those lifts are the kind of training I do anyway. In short, that kind of training makes you strong and hard. They hate on endurance athletes because endurance athletes (many of them) do very little if any weight training at all. Which is unbalanced, to say the least. I mean who wants to look like a long-distance runner? No thanks. If you're an athlete, cross-fit style training is exactly the kind of training you should be doing. Super functional and way better than standard bodybuilding crap - which is pretty much "all show, no go". I would also argue that a world-class decathlete is "fitter" that a world class triathlete - in short, triathletes are one-dimensional (endurance), while a decathlete has to be, by the very nature of the events, a complete athlete with high-level skills across the spectrum of athletic fitness. In short, a world class decathlete can make the transition to triathlons much better than a triathlete make the jump to the decathlon. That's what make them the superior athletes. D </td></tr></table> Spoken just like I would expect someone to who believes that whey protein is both a superior pre and post workout snack.

[old] tkleff · Post by **[old] tkleff** » April 21st, 2005, 12:08 am

FWIW, and it might not be much. I'm surely not a disciple of cross-fit but some of what they say definitely resonates with me. Then again, I'm a believer that the more cross training, all else being equal, the better. As I interpret it, it seems their philosophy is if what you really want is specialized fitness (i.e., being great at being a rower) -- then do just that: lots of rowing. But if you would like to achieve general athletic "fit" -- then you'll need to expand things to some degree. I'm more of an endurance guy myself but I am convinced that some muscle building (i.e., weight lifting) is useful. But given time constraints and general disdain for traditional weight lifting, I've opted to use some concepts from crossfit that make sense to me (i.e., the plyometric routines based around push ups, pullups, sit ups, etc.). In fact, I would recommend a product for which I have **NO** affiliation with: Fit Deck Training cards -- put out by a former Navy Seal. These days, 2-3 times a week, I'll do 20 minutes of calisthentics based off these cards, then either run or row. I can definitely tell that I'm increasing my strength using the cards and regular workouts. Their version of this strength training regimen, typically, involves an aerobic functionality to: typically, something like :20 to :30 seconds of work followed by :10 to :20 rest. Sound familiar. But, then again, I'm an optimist: I try to find good things in both people and websites. . . but, hey -- hate them if you want, no skin off my back

. k

[old] JaneW. · Post by **[old] JaneW.** » April 21st, 2005, 12:18 am

Dear John, ( you make me smile ) Unless someone can help me, there is no marathon in a Decathalon. These are the track events: 100m, long jump, shot put, high jump, 400 m, 110 m hurdles, discus throw, pole vault, javelin throw, 1500 m. These are the events New Zealander Simon Poelman competed as a decathalete. Ironman events have only three which does include the marathon. This is why I believe you can not compare one from the other. In a science experiment, one possible method to test for the fittest man is to have both men do exactly the same exercises from both sports combined provided that the definition of "fitness" is clearly defined or else I will be arguing with Diesel about this topic until sunrise. Now, I really have to go. Let someone else chime in. Let us fight like ladies and gentlemen, shall we?

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » April 21st, 2005, 3:02 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Apr 20 2005, 10:32 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Spoken just like I would expect someone to who believes that whey protein is both a superior pre and post workout snack. </td></tr></table> It is the superior pre and post workout snack. Unless you've got something better, I'm all ears.

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » April 21st, 2005, 3:11 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(JaneW. @ Apr 20 2005, 11:18 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Dear John, ( you make me smile ) Unless someone can help me, there is no marathon in a Decathalon. These are the track events: 100m, long jump, shot put, high jump, 400 m, 110 m hurdles, discus throw, pole vault, javelin throw, 1500 m. These are the events New Zealander Simon Poelman competed as a decathalete. Ironman events have only three which does include the marathon. This is why I believe you can not compare one from the other. In a science experiment, one possible method to test for the fittest man is to have both men do exactly the same exercises from both sports combined provided that the definition of "fitness" is clearly defined or else I will be arguing with Diesel about this topic until sunrise. Now, I really have to go. Let someone else chime in. Let us fight like ladies and gentlemen, shall we? </td></tr></table> I think you guys are getting the wrong idea: they are not denigrating endurance athletes - they are merely pointing out that they are not COMPLETE athletes - in the pursuit of absolute endurance - they have sacrificed other components of fitness - i.e. strength, explosiveness, raw power. You could argue that the triathlon is three different events - but if you think abou it, t it's just an extension of extended aerobics - done in three different disciplines - but not as varied as a decathlon. I will still stand by my position that it would be much easier for a decathlete to make the transition to tri, than would be vice versa. Why? The foundation he has given the VARIETY of the training he has to do to be a good decathlete makes it easy for him to make the transition. However, the triathlete is indeed ill equipped to many of the events in the decathlon - in essence he would have to lock himself in a gym and do remedial work to retrain his CNS to activate his fast-twitch fibers to a much larger extent. The training methods in Crossfit do have applications to all sports. In short, you will be a better rower in the long run, if for example, you followed a Crossfit protocol during the off-season. And yes, Jane, you are correct tri and decathlon are apples and oranges.

[old] JaneW. · Post by **[old] JaneW.** » April 21st, 2005, 5:05 am

Dear Diesel, (Whew! Glad to know you've a sense of humor. I thought I've met a bully in an alley. Tell you a secret. I do agree with some of what you're stating. I enjoy playing devil's advocate and want to see if you can cover all you bases. So let's continue this chess game until checkmate. ) Begin introductions: Nice to meet you. A little curtsy. You claim the Ironman to be more of an aerobic event. To begin with, the Ironman is entirely different from any regular endurance event. The running, bike, and swim times are fast for the amount of distance traveled. Let's breakdown each sport. 1) swimming- For the decathalete to learn how to swim in the ocean will require hours of reworking the CNS and muscle adaptation to water. Do you realize how many years of swimming to be an elite swimmer? Many of the top triathletes have collegiate backgrounds where freestyle, backstroke, butterfly, and breastroke are practiced, performed to perfection in technique, and with periodized training programs so grueling that every muscle aches. The skill to transfer from land to water can be incredibly difficult. Also, have you ever done a flip turn off a wall? Do you realize the special tumbling movement involved here? Learning how to breathe in the ocean water will be another obstacle for the decathalete. Do you have a collegiate background in swimming Diesel because I would not call competitive swimming aerobic. You only need to take a look at the Olympics to see this is not true. Like I said before, some triathletes are collegiate swimmers too. 2) biking- Lance Armstrong was a triathlete before focusing soley on biking. Triathletes are strong and mentally tough. Again, to train to be the best will require aerobic and interval training. Riding on a road bike through windy, wet, and hot conditions requires a different kind of strength. 3) running- this is a marathon distance ran at a fast pace for the top athlete, not the bottom portion of ahtletes. The marathon runners that I have met and know all lift weights and do track interval workouts. The top runners know track and field very well. Speed workouts are literally a drop in the bucket. Running a marathon also require skill in that all movement needs to flow and be directed forward so no energy is lost. There are massive drills involved with all three activities. I do not know Mark Allen's exact strengths and weaknesses so I can't comment about his ability to learn the decathalon events quickly. I can't do the same for Simon either but to tell you that these events are far from being aerobic. Simon, too, will have an incredibly hard time for his mucles to adapt to the amount of stress placed on his body for extended periods of time. The Ironman event will be just as painful so mentally and emotionally, who would be stronger? Yes, decathaletes are a special breed of people but how much of what Bruce Jenner, the American decathalete, say is true? Basically, he was good in all areas but not specatacular , at least to win gold so he combined all the events together. Maybe, Mark Allen can learn the field events because he won't be competing with the best in all ten events. As I recall, Jackee Joyner Kersee, another multi talented track person needed to just finish her 1500 meter race in order to win gold. She did not finish first in several of her events. Tis late. How about we just share information instead? By the way, isn't whey protein a bodybuilding supplement?

[old] starboardrigged1seat · Post by **[old] starboardrigged1seat** » April 21st, 2005, 9:31 am

Checkmate.