Cold Water

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Nov 18 2005, 07:28 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Nov 18 2005, 07:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I recently swam 4k race in cool water without suffering from hypothermia </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />FrancoisA,<br /><br />What was the water temp?<br /><br />GW <br /> </td></tr></table><br />It was in the low 60. That's why I said cool water not cold! Note also that I have very little body fat to protect me.

[[old] Ray79]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Nov 18 2005, 02:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Nov 18 2005, 02:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What are you suggesting to our friend if his shell tip over: to stand still, when he only has to swim 50 meters ?!? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I would suggest that if he cant get back into the shell, and doesnt want to make a swim for the shore then to turn the shell seat down and use it as a raft. Climb on top of it and straddle it. Gets you out of the water for a start.<br />In any water safety lecture I have ever been to, the instructions are simple; if you do fall out of your boat, dont leave it, it is your life raft, especially in cold conditions. I would rather paddle it slowly to the shore as a raft than swim half way and realise im not going to make it.<br />

[[old] gw1]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It was in the low 60 </td></tr></table><br /><br />That's pretty hardy!

[[old] afolpe]

In the kayaking community, we spend endless time bickering about when you should be wearing immersion wear, with some people suggesing a drysuit and PFD for the bathtub, and others claiming never to use anything ever. I've taken the general rule that if the water is below 60F or if the air temps are below 40F, or if I think there is a good chance that I will be in the water a lot (like on a surfski in ocean, except when the water is warm) I wear a drysuit. If you get a good Goretex one, like the ones from Kokotat, you can work pretty hard and stay comfortable. They make some now that don't have full-on latex neck gaskets, so they're not appropriate for expeditions, but just fine for the occasional brief immersion. The other thing to keep in mind is having some sort of gloves that allow your hands enough dexterity to do stuff if you are in the water for a while. Neoprene gloves are fine, although dry gloves are much nicer.<br /><br />Andrew

[[old] PaulS]

I'm going to be a bit more hard line on this.<br /><br />If you have any reason to believe that you will end up in the water, and the water temp is 60F or less, and you will likely be alone. <br /><br />DON'T RISK IT! YOU WILL DIE.<br /><br />I have scullers do a flip test in 70F water on Warm days and whether or not they think they are "flailing" (perhaps not full panic), they do look that way, and every one mentions that it was "quite a shock", even though they were in complete control of falling out of the boat.<br /><br />If you have convinced yourself that you have no chance of going in the water, wear an inflatable vest designed for rowers and carry a Fox40 whistle (you probably will not be able to yell loud enough to be heard but these babys are scary loud with minimal wind power). If you find yourself in the water, get out (up over the boat hull) ASAP to reduce the rate at which you are going to be losing bodyheat. If you can re-enter the boat quickly do it, if not, get up over it and use it to keep your body our of the water and kick and paddle to safety.<br /><br />I took the opportunity of fillling my home spa with 50F water to immerse myself in it to see what would happen, I was as close to incapacitated as I was willing to get in just over a minute. I could think just fine and it had started to not "feel" that cold, but the muscles in my arms and legs were refusing to cooperate in a manner that I would call functional. I would estimate that I would have had 1 chance to re-enter a boat, and if that failed, even paddle-kicking 100m to shore would have been very challenging.<br /><br />We do row in very cold weather and water in the NW USA, and some do it in a 1x with no coaching launch. I only do it in boats where, with circumstances that are within our control, I am 99% certain of staying upright (I'll never be 100% certain, yet have never gone swimming.). We wear an inflatable PFD (fanny pack type), that does require a bit of thought to use, but there are two of us and I think we'd stay fairly calm. Although we've never gone swimming, we will only take an outing in the cold if the water is perfect, certainly not in "challenging conditions".<br /><br />If your internal alarm is going off, listen to it.<br /><br />Stay safe.

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Nov 18 2005, 07:48 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Nov 18 2005, 07:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It was in the low 60 </td></tr></table><br /><br />That's pretty hardy! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />It was a rainy day, the air temperature was 55 F and we were swimming against a head wind.<br /><br />Swimming in 50 F water (let alone 40 F) is a different game, but then 50 m is not 4 km. <br /><br />One solution mentioned before was to row with a wetsuit. That would certainly help: no "thermal shock" upon entering the water, as well as increased buoyancy. The main draw back is that wetsuit are made of neoprene, a non-breathing material.<br /><br />Out of curiosity I just tried erging with my wetsuit on, and after 500m I had to stop, I was suffocating! <a href='http://store1.yimg.com/I/trisports_1870_10784565' target='_blank'>This</a> is what I have, but for rowing I think a <a href='http://www.rooworld.com/wetsuits/2005/quickjohn.aspx' target='_blank'>Quickjohn</a> would be more appropriate.

[[old] H_2O]

I have to second Francois. Swim to keep warm.<br />Unfortunately I can only provide data for relatively warm water:<br /><br />1) The Ichetucknee river in Florida has 72 degrees. The first time I swam in it<br />(with the current) I was so amazed by what there was to see I forgot to move around and just floated downstream. Within 45 minutes I was chilled to the bone and had to get out at the first landing and jog in the summer heat in Florida for 10 mins to get warm again.<br /><br />I then made it my habit to swim against the current (with fins) and then back down with the current. In this fashion I have been in this water for 3 hours and more with no discomfort whatsoever.<br /><br />2) Some of our swim workouts (1 hour) took place in water of 65 degrees.<br />You had to keep moving. As soon as you stopped you would get cold. <br />The chubbier guys had no problems at all.<br /><br />3) In 62 degree ocean water I was able to remain for 20 mins swimming around<br />with no problems. It would have been terrible to remain still.<br /><br />4) I once jumped into a mountain lake head first (proper swim start from rock). <br />There was no gasping upon immersion (the water cannot have had more than 50 degrees if that). However I got out as quickly as possible and was red all over my skin when I emerged.<br /><br />Summary: do not under any circumstances fall into freezing water. You will not die<br />but you will suffer quite a bit. If you can swim reasonably well let go of the boat and go for the shore.<br />A 50m swim takes only one minute even for a slow swimmer.

[[old] bw1099]

PaulS wrote:<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I took the opportunity of fillling my home spa with 50F water to immerse myself in it to see what would happen, I was as close to incapacitated as I was willing to get in just over a minute. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Think about the 50-50-50 Rule: When the water temperature is 50 degrees F, 50% of the people will survive 50 minutes.<br /><br />bw

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Exrook+Nov 18 2005, 06:25 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Exrook @ Nov 18 2005, 06:25 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Physical exercise such as swimming causes the body to lose heat at a much faster rate than remaining still in the water.  Blood is pumped to the extremities and quickly cooled. [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes this is exactly correct.<br /><br />You would keep your muscles warmer for movement and, as a result, lose body heat more rapidly.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hal Morgan+Nov 17 2005, 05:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Hal Morgan @ Nov 17 2005, 05:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have tipped over. I can not get back in the boat. I tried and tried with no luck. I just swim it to shore and get back in. I don't like to row near shore. I like to stay at least 50 meters off the bank.  How long do I have in cold water? I wear a Life jacket every time I go on the water. So should I hang it up until spring?[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, hang it up until spring.<br /><br />Ocean swimmer, Diana Nyad, talked in her autobiography about swimming in Puget Sound. There was a swimmer there who was nowhere in her class but with about 50% body fat who could swim for hours in the cold water. However she very quickly became cold and was unable to continue. Those with high body fat will last much longer in cold water.<br /><br />I would say in water that was 50 degrees or less I would have zero chance of swimming 50 meters to the shore, and I can swim 2 miles in warm water.

[[old] Carl Henrik]

All this talk about paddling to shore... I've actually tried this. Ok, it was a little windy but I got a feeling for it: You're going nowhere! You are loosing heat more rapidly than just being still. And you are loosing time from an already small time window in which you can actively do something about your situation!<br /><br />If you have 50m to swim or less and you are in water with no other traffic to aid you, then you should leave the boat immediately! Don't loose the heat that could have gotten you the last 20meters to land. Paddling the boat upside down 50m may take 30min or may not work at all depending on winds and currents! You will loose a lot of heat from paddling your arms or legs through the water all that time. After 30 min in all soaked clothes you may well have contracted cold damages and loose consiousness if the air temperature is low. You can then not even pray someone sees you before a wave slides you into the water, or before you are fully dead. Bad option. <br /><br />Unless you think someone will come to your aid just lying on top of your boat You will have better chances swimming if it's just 50m. Why on earth would you want to stay as much as 50m from shore though and increase the risk for your life. In terms of body heat most people will be able to work the 1 minute it takes to swim 50m (a 40kg person might find it tougher) but there is no guarantee no further complication arises during this time. <br /><br />If I had a boat I did not know I could get into in cold water I would probably try to stay 10m from shore. Anything else is stupid.<br /><br />Btw, if you are in a crew boat: Half the crew should immediately climb on top of the boat and down the other side, if necessary getting the the boat with the right side up doing this. After this it will be much easier and quicker to get into the boat and start emptying it so that your feet don't pull all heat from your body.

[[old] Hal Morgan]

I am convinced.<br /><br />I will erg until the dawn of spring. <br /><br />The truth is and has been so well supported, cold water kills.<br /><br /> My experience in cold water swimming was a factor and had led to my false since of security. Slow or fast swimming, moving or not moving, under the boat, over the boat, with or without the boat, 50 meters or 10 meters. Water temp does the nasty deed.<br /><br /> I believe in the c2 forum, everyone has taught me a great deal with your posts and comments on every subject. <br /><br />post script: I never, ever row alone.

[[old] adkmurray]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hal Morgan+Nov 17 2005, 09:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Hal Morgan @ Nov 17 2005, 09:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First winter of rowing. I am a novice in the sport. I row a single on a mountain lake. I get in from the beach area in the summer and fall. Now the water is stinking freezing cold to  my legs and feet. I will board at the crew dock. My wife told me that hypothermia is going to affect me if I fall in agian. I have tipped over. I can not get back in the boat. I tried and tried with no luck. I just swim it to shore and get back in. I don't like to row near shore. I like to stay at least 50 meters off the bank.  How long do I have in cold water? I wear a Life jacket every time I go on the water. So should I hang it up until spring? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Take it from a seasoned north country canoeist. Cold water can kill you. A little walk in the park swim turns into an exhausting and life threatening task. Been there, done that and very thankful to survive.<br />Jim

[[old] SlugButt]

<br />Sounds like a great decision, Hal! For what it's worth, the Rowing News looked at the history of New England college crews and how late they got on the water and found no correlation between long winters and slower times at the Sprints. Obviously, not a scientific study since there are way to many factors that could not be controlled for (ability of the rowers from one year to the next, headwinds at the Sprints, etc.), but at least it's something to tell yourself while your on the erg.<br /><br />Thank you for bringing up such an important topic (also, thanks to all who posted replies - I learned a lot). Although I had (almost) always gone by the "good sense" rule of stay-near-a-launch-when-the-water-gets-cold, having clear information sure is a good thing to keep me in line next time I think of bending that rule a little.<br /><br />In the mean time, back to the erg. I'm proud to report that even with my bad sculling I've never flipped a C2.<br /><br />DCL

[[old] ljwagner]

Next Spring, learn how to get in your flipped single !!<br /><br />I've rowed alone in winter. Not the smartest thing to do. It wasn't my time to die.<br /><br />I flipped a single in late December 1970, and again in March about 1986. Heat generated from rowing made me not notice the water temp. But my body fat was about 12% and at 145 lbs, I could not stay in the water long. In December, I was the only one on the water, but people were at the boathouse a mile away. They could not see me.<br /><br /> I was able to get back in quickly both times, and despite being chilled, I rowed hard to warm up immediately. Many thanks to the guys on my crew who figured this out and talked about it at breakfast years ago. Also to the guys who could not get in for motivating me with how scared they were when they flipped in winter, even in California.<br /><br />The March flip, my mother and father were about 40 feet away in an Alden double. My mom wanted me to get a towel and dry off. I declined. Getting moving, and warm took a few minutes.<br /><br />How we did it:<br /><br />Get the boat right side up. Somehow.<br />Pull the scull handles up to the bow end, one at a time if need be.<br /> - you may need to swim around to do this. Oh, well.<br />Cross the handles, or put them end to end on the decking<br /> - This means the blades are up in the air.<br /> - You can't let the sculls float away.<br /> - The boat may flip again, or you'll flip reaching for them.<br />Hold the handles with one hand so you don't lose them. Keep holding on to them.<br />Straddle the scull at the bow end, and sit up, holding the sculls.<br /> - Now your torso is out of the water. <br /> - Relax a little. Breathe<br />Scoot toward the seat, keeping a hold on the sculls.<br /> - Reach in front, grip the boat, and try to bounce your butt forward toward the slide.<br />When you can put the sculls in your lap do so, so they are locked by your legs, arms, and body.<br /> - You'll need both hands to lift yourself over a splash board if you have one.<br />Lift yourself over the spashboard, and again onto the seat.<br />Sculls out, get moving and get warm.<br /><br />Maybe Xeno or someone will make a video demonstartion of how to get in when flipped, and post it.