Slides Are ........

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bill+Jul 15 2005, 10:59 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Bill @ Jul 15 2005, 10:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PaulS : "A potentially useful tool for training on the Erg."<br /><br />......<br /><br /><br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />Thanks for the response - I should've allowed for extra options in the poll ......<br /><br />Can you help us to understand the potentially useful things one one might be able to do on slides that cannot be done on a "floor erg"  please ? <br /><br />What useful or different training is possible on slides that you wouldnt do on a floor erg ?<br /><br />Thanks <br /><br /><br />Bill <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Xeno would be the creative mind behind the novel use of Slides to do things that cannot be done on a ground bound Erg. One of the more fun is "single leg rowing", where one foot rests on the floor while the other functions normally, it can lead to some rather startling revelations. Since when rowing, the use of both legs together is exacty what we want to learn, I wouldn't do this often, but it's fun to find out how well you can control the legs independently, which could have a beneficial effect in eventualy controlling them more precisely together.<br /><br />My sole use for the Erg is on how to use it to train for moving a boat, so I treat the Erg on Slides exactly the same as I do the Erg on the Ground. The single aspect of being on slides that can provide useful feedback is how the slides move on the tracks. For each stroke cycle the Erg should move one direction, then the other. It should sit still for a very short period of time at the finish, and for a much shorter time at the catch (I'd say "not at all at the catch", but we know it must stop for some time due to the change in direction). Any "double" motion means that there is some uncontrolled bobbling about that would disturb the run of a boat. Another thing is to go for consistency, there should be no "wandering" along the tracks, once in rhytm the carriage should travel over the same range of track every stroke.<br /><br />

[LindaM]

I was one of the lucky ones, who didn't experience back pain before slides. But having recently completed a weekend working on my on-water sculling technique, I learned that I was over reaching the catch, not laying back enough at recovery and not "pulling the boat under me" during the stroke. All of these form problems are easier to work out using slides. In fact, the slides just naturally keep me from going past vertical shins at the catch, and it feels natural "to pull the boat under me" during the stroke. So now I am using the slides for every erg workout. <br /><br />My most comfortable spm is a little higher using slides (29-30, instead of 27-28) on the stationary erg, and I can use a slightly higher drag factor without tiring my shoulders (around 118 - 120).

[[old] John Rupp]

It's normal to have a higher spm on the slides, because you're going a faster pace on them.

[[old] Dickie]

After reading the posts here, I suspect that the reason people think slides are better on the back is that slides have changed the mechanics of their stroke (see posts by PaulS), it is not the slides themselves. Remember it takes about 200 Watts of power to achieve a 2:00/500 pace and the force used to generate this power is transferred to the back and is required whether you are on slides or not.

[[old] John Rupp]

Of course if you use the same stroke rate on slides, although with less effort, then the pace will be the same, i.e., keeping the same pace on slides as the erg, with the same rate, and doing the same pace will equal the same pace. Of course if you keep the pace the same, the pace will be the same. <br /><br />Now we're becoming math geniuses. <br /><br />By the =same= reasoning, the =same effort= on slides as on the erg, results in a =higher= stroke rate and a =faster= pace.<br /><br />It's not that hard to figure this out. Results have shown there is a 2 to 6% time advantage on the slides. The heavier the rower then the greater the advantage, as compared to the erg without slides.

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jul 20 2005, 02:35 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 20 2005, 02:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's normal to have a higher spm on the slides, because you're going a faster pace on them. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Huh? Slides cause this? John, you gotta be kidding. I thought the equations are:<br /><br />Pull Harder @ Same SPM = Go Faster<br /><br />Pull Greater SPM @ Same Pressure = Go Faster<br /><br />Pull Harder + Pull Faster = Go Even Faster<br /><br />Where do slides enter into the equation???<br /><br />

[[old] jamesg]

It's much easier to come forward on the slides than on fixed, so the recovery takes less time if we put the same effort into reaching the front stop. This leads to an immediate increase in rating so more work; but I soon learn, and slow down the recovery to reduce the rating and work level to where I want them.<br /><br />With the slides, the catch too differs: much quicker and shorter, which leads to a longer stroke; and more work there too. So after a short while, we (me anyway) drop the rating even further.<br /><br />Same thing happens to me when sculling too.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-jamesg+Jul 21 2005, 03:34 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Jul 21 2005, 03:34 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's much easier to come forward on the slides than on fixed ... so more work </td></tr></table><br />Yes much easier, thus "more work performed" = faster pace, with the *same* effort as less work and a slower pace on an erg.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With the slides, the catch too differs: much quicker and shorter, which leads to a longer stroke; and more work there too. </td></tr></table><br />More work performed, i.e. faster pace with same effort.<br /><br />Length of stroke is determined by body mechanics, thus the stroke length is the same.<br /><br />Thus the ease of performing more work, comes from a higher stroke rate on the slides.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So after a short while, we (me anyway) drop the rating even further. </td></tr></table><br />The rating doesn't need to drop, unless your intention is to go slower and/or the same pace as on erg.<br />

[[old] jamesg]

The overall stroke length can be the same, if we wish, but the net stroke length (with the chain under tension) differs on fixed and slides, due to Newtonian effects at the catch. The difference is around 6-7cm, considering handle speed 1.5m/s and stretcher force = our weight. As the net stroke length is around 123cm for me, on a fixed erg, 7cm extra pull length is a big difference. This effect, together with the far easier recovery, are the main differences I note when shifting from a fixed erg to a slider or a 1x. These differences, seen from a Newtonian point of view, also explain why it's possible to generate more work at flat out speeds and why there may be a small energy saving (not that this will appear free of charge on the monitor) if we train specifically for and know how to use the slides.

[[old] John Rupp]

No, the overall stroke length is the same.<br /><br />The stroke length <b>per time</b> is greater, solely due to there being more strokes per minute on slides, while keeping effort the same as on erg.<br /><br />Whether you wish or not, your body remains the same size.

[[old] jamesg]

That's not the point; your body size controls the overall length of the stroke, but the net length on the erg is controlled by other factors too - in particular the drag and how fast you come off the stretcher. If you want the net length to be the same on slides, you can do it, just lower the drag and/or shove less hard. The point of the slides is that you can have a quicker and shorter catch and so a longer net stroke, if you want to.<br /><br />If you try a 1x you'll see the effect immediately and unmistakeably, if you have a quick catch. The effect is so marked that I find it is essential to reduce the pull force and the rating, with respect to erg levels, just to keep HR within limits. <br /> <br />This is one of the two factors that make it possible for us to work harder on the slides; the other is the quicker recovery that lets us up the rating, under sprint conditions, to levels that would be impossible on a fixed erg. I can rate 40 on a fixed erg, short and very nasty, but even 50 on slides with almost a full length stroke; but I only last for 100m if not less.

[[old] Cayenne]

Please explain the term "rate" and/or "rating".<br /><br />Thank you,<br /><br />Eddie

[[old] Mark Keating]

<!--QuoteBegin-Cayenne+Jul 23 2005, 10:39 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Cayenne @ Jul 23 2005, 10:39 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please explain the term "rate" and/or "rating".<br /><br />Thank you,<br /><br />Eddie <br /> </td></tr></table><br />"rate" = stroke rate per minute

[[old] John Rupp]

James,<br /><br />There seems to be a contradiction between you saying "your body size controls the overall length of the stroke" and "you can have a quicker and shorter catch and so a longer net stroke (on the slides)". <br /><br />How do you explain the contradiction in your statements?<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can rate 40 on a fixed erg, short and very nasty, but even 50 on slides with almost a full length stroke </td></tr></table><br />Of course because if you went at 50 spm with a full stroke on the erg you would get tired much more quickly.<br /><br />That doesn't mean that you can take a longer stroke on the slides but, simply, that you chopped your stroke on the erg. If you didn't chop your stroke you would be taking the same length of stroke on the erg as the slides, as this is defined by body mechanics.<br /><br />If you are saying you'd not be able to maintain the same stroke rate and length on the erg, as the slides due to being able to perform more work with less effort, then we certainly do agree about this.

[[old] tditmar]

I can barely read all these arguments regarding slides. I hardly understand half of them. But...<br /><br />Doesn't erging on the C2 with slides more closely replicate actual rowing on water vs erging on the C2 without slides?<br /><br />Even though you are on slides, aren't you producing the same amount of work, meaning you are doing the same thing with the erg off slides, only doing it on a sliding mechanism?<br /><br />Isn't is true that someone who rows fast on water may not produce a top of the line C2 erg score and vice-versa?<br /><br />Could it be that slides are not really giving anyone in particular an advantage on the C2, but since it more closely replicates rowing on water giving a more accurate representation of who is faster in that replication? <br /><br />I think that would mean that while it seems as though some have an advantage, some may have a disadvantage, depending on how you look at it.