Weight Training Necessary?

[[old] TomR/the elder]

This is what Steve Seiler, who appears to have extensively studied the physiology of rowing, says:<br /><br />"My current perspective on the wieght training issue is that the very best strength training for rowing happens in the boat or on the erg while rowing!"<br /><br /><a href='http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/rowstre.htm' target='_blank'>http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/rowstre.htm</a><br /><br />Yoda, weren't you going to correspond w/ Seiler?<br /><br />Tom

[[old] remador]

I agree that rowing itself will provide with enormous strength. But, to do so, you will have to keep raising your power per stroke ratio. In thesis, at least, this may lead you to your body's limit of strength, someday.<br /><br />However, you must not forget that rowing, complete as it is, it's a single movement (erging is even more "single") and some weight training will help you to keep your body balanced (even because you can work any specific weakness solely). OTOH, in the early pre-competition season, weight training is good to build muscle-mass, that later you will translate into more rowing power.<br /><br />Just be cautious not to cause over-train, by rowing <u>and</u> weight-training.<br /><br />Hope this helps,<br />AM

[[old] Yoda1]

TomR,<br /><br />I tried to correspond with him, however I never recieved any answer. Here my take on strength training related to any form of athletics. Please remember that this is my opinion. It's based on a lot of years of working with people interested in improving their performance. A person gets him/herself into the best shape for the event they wish to excel in. At some point, no matter how hard that try they well reach a level that can not be exceeded without something else to raise their performance. <br /><br />Most people seem to mix supplemental exercise with the specific sport. It can't be. Exercise, in this case, is what helps to improve the performance. It is not part of the specific sport. They are two different items completely. They can not be mixed as one. <br /><br />A young man has a car. It will do 0-to 60 in 6.0 seconds. That's it!!! It won't go any faster without a change or an addition to the engine or gearing. He installs a larger carborator and a 3/4 race cam. It will now do 0 to 60 in 5.2 seconds. The stock automobile represents a person with doing any outside of the specific sport. The automobile with the added equipment represents a person that has used some form of cross training to raise his performance. In this case, the larger carb and 3/4 race cam represents the cross training (resistance training) that the person has done. Just an example of what I'm trying very hard to say.<br /><br />All of use can read every paper, report, or book known to man about training for specific sports, but nothing can change a persons mind quicker than actually experiencing what supplemental exercise can do for improvement in a sport. Again, in my opinion, most of these reports, papers, and books are written by people that do not know an onion from a carrot. The information is slanted an very opinionated. Don't get me wrong there are some good ones out there, but to rely on this slanted information in your training is foolish. I believe a person needs to test, experiement with their bodies. Try something on your own. What works and doesn't work will surface if you listen to your body. It'll tell you when you've pushed to hard or if your asking to much from it. No book, paper, or report will tell you that. <br /><br />I've got almost 50 years of resistance training under my belt, most of it trying to help others improve their performance. I will say this until my dying day. A person can not reach the highest level of performance in any given sport without resistance training. <br /><br />Yoda

[[old] TomR/the elder]

Thanx, Yoda. <br /><br />I'm sorry he didn't respond, because I think the exchange could have been revealing. His reports suggest supplemental weight training for rowers is of limited value. Your experience tells you otherwise.<br /><br />Back when I was a competitive athlete--not as an oarsman--I lifted. It helped me to compete more successfully. Every now and then I still throw around embarrassingly light amounts of iron, but mostly I just erg ever so slowly. Alas, I don't think the engine gets up to 60 any more.<br /><br />Tom<br /><br />

[[old] DIESEL]

<!--QuoteBegin-gaffano+Jan 25 2006, 10:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gaffano @ Jan 25 2006, 10:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Diesel....was wondering how you determined that "Nothing shapes you up faster than the combo of rowing and lifting."?  <br /><br />Not critical, just curious. In terms of the cardio, why rowing as opposed to running, biking, cross country sking, etc? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />IT doesn't have to be rowing - any moderately intense cardio will do. I just happen to like rowing, and I do think it will do it faster than pretty much anything except XC skiing and running interval wind sprints. <br /><br />

[[old] akit110]

<!--QuoteBegin-Yoda1+Jan 26 2006, 12:20 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yoda1 @ Jan 26 2006, 12:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TomR,<br />I've got almost 50 years of resistance training under my belt, most of it trying to help others improve their performance.  I will say this until my dying day.  A person can not reach the highest level of performance in any given sport without resistance training. <br /><br />Yoda <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The thing that came to mind when I read your post is that this is probably very true for those elite athletes who are at the forefront of their abilities (after years of training under the best coaching, the best diet etc). <br /><br />But would this necessarily be true for anyone short of that? In many cases, even with very competitive college crews, for example, wouldn't the extra time, resources and energy spent on weight training be better spent in more sport specific training i.e. increasing the frequency, intensity or duration of rowing OR improving rowing technique or even psychological techniques. As presumably, these factors are still 'rate-limiting' with respect to their rowing performance. To continue your analogy, they have yet got to the point where they are able to put the accelerator to the floor. <br /><br />

[[old] akit110]

<!--QuoteBegin-DIESEL+Jan 26 2006, 02:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Jan 26 2006, 02:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IT doesn't have to be rowing - any moderately intense cardio will do.  I just happen to like rowing, and I do think it will do it faster than pretty much anything except XC skiing and running interval wind sprints. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh. I was hoping that you might say that rowing has a more anabolic stimulus towards gaining or at least preserving muscle mass than, say, cycling or running presumably since rowing falls somewhat in the strength-endurance spectrum of sports (i.e. the 2K event is only a few minutes in duration and only involves a few hundred strokes) and extra bodyweight is not inhibitory on performance as in the other sports. <br /><br />

[[old] Yoda1]

akit110,<br /><br />I believe that all of the items you mentioned fall into the catagory of the sports specific effort. The resistance training is the supplement to it.<br /><br />Why would you feel that resistance training only is applicable to elite athletes? Resistance training should, in my opinion, should be used throughout one's athletic endeavors. It is something that should be used from the age of around 15 and up. Bones are to soft before that. <br /><br />Resistance training isn't something that will kill you. When I started lifting I was a sophmore in high school. I was on the wrestling team at a bodyweight of 85 pounds. I was compeitive with others in that weight class, but had major problems handling anyone heavier. I wanted to handle the bigger guys. Our coach found out I was lifting and chewed me out. Back then weight training was a no-no. It made you muscle bound. Yeah, right. I continued to workout with the weights. As a senior I went to state in the 147 pound class. But I was only 2 inches taller than when I weighed 85 pounds. I got my butt kicked. The point is that without the resistance training, that I had to teach myself, I wouldn't have ever made it to state finals.<br /><br />Again, resistance training and the specific sport effort must be kept separate from each other. Obviously, the specific sport should be first in the overall training, but the supplemental training is necessary to reach the highest goal.<br /><br />Yoda

[[old] Yoda1]

akit110,<br /><br />I believe that all of the items you mentioned fall into the catagory of the sports specific effort. The resistance training is the supplement to it.<br /><br />Why would you feel that resistance training only is applicable to elite athletes? Resistance training should, in my opinion, should be used throughout one's athletic endeavors. It is something that should be used from the age of around 15 and up. Bones are to soft before that. <br /><br />Resistance training isn't something that will kill you. When I started lifting I was a sophmore in high school. I was on the wrestling team at a bodyweight of 85 pounds. I was compeitive with others in that weight class, but had major problems handling anyone heavier. I wanted to handle the bigger guys. Our coach found out I was lifting and chewed me out. Back then weight training was a no-no. It made you muscle bound. Yeah, right. I continued to workout with the weights. As a senior I went to state in the 147 pound class. But I was only 2 inches taller than when I weighed 85 pounds. I got my butt kicked. The point is that without the resistance training, that I had to teach myself, I wouldn't have never made it to state finals.<br /><br />Again, resistance training and the specific sport effort must be kept separate from each other. Obviously, the specific sport should be first in the overall training, but the supplemental training is necessary to reach the highest goal.<br /><br />Yoda

[[old] DIESEL]

<!--QuoteBegin-akit110+Jan 26 2006, 01:21 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(akit110 @ Jan 26 2006, 01:21 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-DIESEL+Jan 26 2006, 02:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Jan 26 2006, 02:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IT doesn't have to be rowing - any moderately intense cardio will do.  I just happen to like rowing, and I do think it will do it faster than pretty much anything except XC skiing and running interval wind sprints. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh. I was hoping that you might say that rowing has a more anabolic stimulus towards gaining or at least preserving muscle mass than, say, cycling or running presumably since rowing falls somewhat in the strength-endurance spectrum of sports (i.e. the 2K event is only a few minutes in duration and only involves a few hundred strokes) and extra bodyweight is not inhibitory on performance as in the other sports. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh, I didn't realize that's where you were going with that question. Actually, I don't know how much of a difference the "pounding" from running makes in relation to retaining mass - but I do know that if the goal is to retain mass while trying to burn off excess body fat - long steady state cardio is highly inefficient - it certainly not an anabolic stimulus, on the contrary, if your nutrition is not up to par, it could be quite catabolic. It's not for nothing that elite marathon runners look like a bag of bones on sinewy quads. <br /><br />the stimulus you are talking about only happens when you do anaerobic interval style workouts - basically you can do them cycling, running, or rowing. Although I assume that since rowing uses more muscle groups than either of the other two, it would be more time effective from a total work/ time spent exercising standpoint. <br /><br />However, this is pure conjecture - I don't have data to back that up. I do know this, anyone you choose though, when does high intensity interval style.. it will probably kick your ass.

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-akit110+Jan 26 2006, 01:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(akit110 @ Jan 26 2006, 01:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Yoda1+Jan 26 2006, 12:20 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yoda1 @ Jan 26 2006, 12:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TomR,<br />I've got almost 50 years of resistance training under my belt, most of it trying to help others improve their performance.  I will say this until my dying day.  A person can not reach the highest level of performance in any given sport without resistance training. <br /><br />Yoda <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The thing that came to mind when I read your post is that this is probably very true for those elite athletes who are at the forefront of their abilities (after years of training under the best coaching, the best diet etc). <br /><br />But would this necessarily be true for anyone short of that? In many cases, even with very competitive college crews, for example, wouldn't the extra time, resources and energy spent on weight training be better spent in more sport specific training i.e. increasing the frequency, intensity or duration of rowing OR improving rowing technique or even psychological techniques. As presumably, these factors are still 'rate-limiting' with respect to their rowing performance. To continue your analogy, they have yet got to the point where they are able to put the accelerator to the floor. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />akit,<br /><br />Just to add to what Yoda said above -- this is not an either/or situation. Athletes can work on their technique and their strength within the same program. In most cases, it can't be done at the same time (i.e., in the same workout/practice period), but strength conditioning and technique development should complement one another.<br /><br />The major problem that I see here is that some (many? most?) coaches with a great deal of sport-specific knowledge don't have the comparable level of information regarding strength training (and other aspects of general conditioning). That's why you see training protocols like the one that started this thread.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents.

[[old] akit110]

[quote=DIESEL,Jan 26 2006, 04:11 PM]<br />[quote=akit110,Jan 26 2006, 01:21 PM][quote=DIESEL,Jan 26 2006, 02:13 PM]IT <br />However, this is pure conjecture - I don't have data to back that up. I do know this, anyone you choose though, when does high intensity interval style.. it will probably kick your ass. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />My statements were all meant to be conjecture as well. It's just that empirically, you do see large, (relatively) well muscled people row so obviously that type of build is not something that hinders you in competitive rowing. The issue, of course, of whether it's nature or nurture (or both) is of course up in the air.<br /><br />What do you consider intervals in terms of rowing? 100m, 500m or 1000m repeats?<br />

[[old] gaffano]

<!--QuoteBegin-DIESEL+Jan 26 2006, 01:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Jan 26 2006, 01:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-gaffano+Jan 25 2006, 10:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gaffano @ Jan 25 2006, 10:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Diesel....was wondering how you determined that "Nothing shapes you up faster than the combo of rowing and lifting."?  <br /><br />Not critical, just curious. In terms of the cardio, why rowing as opposed to running, biking, cross country sking, etc? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />IT doesn't have to be rowing - any moderately intense cardio will do. I just happen to like rowing, and I do think it will do it faster than pretty much anything except XC skiing and running interval wind sprints. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Diesel...I bike, and row, and lift. I am not so concerned about my times. I would like your input on what you think will burn BF and keep it in check, while I build/maintain muscle mass. Am I understanding you that interval work would be best for both biking and rowing. ...a few sessions a wk rowing/biking at long 65-75% MHR....then mixing it up with a few days of biking/rowing sprints and 80-90%MHR? I do not want to look like Lance Armstrong, marathon runner....

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-DIESEL+Jan 24 2006, 12:45 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Jan 24 2006, 12:45 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lifting may give a second or two because of the strength, but mainly it's too keep your pushing muscles balanced with the pulling muscles which get the brunt of the force in rowing. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Diesel:<br /><br />This is very true. <br /><br />I was a big bench press guy ... for many years ... and also did some back work, which you know is much harder to build than chest. There is no question that I had an imbalance: chest vs. back. I started to get a numbness in my left arm, had an MRI, and it was found that my back muscles, under so much "pulling" from my over-developed chest muscles, were spasming and causing a "constriction" in the area of my neck. After physical therapy, lots of back work, <u><b>no </b></u>chest work, I was able to get the musculature in balance, and all is now well. The whole topic of symmetry is very, very important, in my opinion. You've hit the nail on the head here.<br /><br />Regards -- Mark

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Jan 26 2006, 04:18 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jan 26 2006, 04:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-akit110+Jan 26 2006, 01:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(akit110 @ Jan 26 2006, 01:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Yoda1+Jan 26 2006, 12:20 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yoda1 @ Jan 26 2006, 12:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TomR,<br />I've got almost 50 years of resistance training under my belt, most of it trying to help others improve their performance.  I will say this until my dying day.  A person can not reach the highest level of performance in any given sport without resistance training. <br /><br />Yoda <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The thing that came to mind when I read your post is that this is probably very true for those elite athletes who are at the forefront of their abilities (after years of training under the best coaching, the best diet etc). <br /><br />But would this necessarily be true for anyone short of that? In many cases, even with very competitive college crews, for example, wouldn't the extra time, resources and energy spent on weight training be better spent in more sport specific training i.e. increasing the frequency, intensity or duration of rowing OR improving rowing technique or even psychological techniques. As presumably, these factors are still 'rate-limiting' with respect to their rowing performance. To continue your analogy, they have yet got to the point where they are able to put the accelerator to the floor. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />akit,<br /><br />Just to add to what Yoda said above -- this is not an either/or situation. Athletes can work on their technique and their strength within the same program. In most cases, it can't be done at the same time (i.e., in the same workout/practice period), but strength conditioning and technique development should complement one another.<br /><br />The major problem that I see here is that some (many? most?) coaches with a great deal of sport-specific knowledge don't have the comparable level of information regarding strength training (and other aspects of general conditioning). That's why you see training protocols like the one that started this thread.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Porkchop:<br /><br />Amen! That's why NFL teams hire guys like Teddie Lambrinides, an old university chum of mine. See:<br /><br /><a href='http://www.naturalstrength.com/research ... thorID=108' target='_blank'>http://www.naturalstrength.com/research ... 108</a><br /><br />The topic is so complex, I feel no coach has enough time to stay up-to-date with their sport <u><b>and </b></u>the latest developments in strength training.<br /><br />-- Mark