Legendary Abs

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Yukon John+Jan 13 2006, 06:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Jan 13 2006, 06:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On your Topic of Ranger, he sounds like he likes to work out a lot and has found what works for himself. I question whether we should question what anyone else does for their exercise (unless they are doing something improperly and risk injury.) If we just focus on our own training and share with others anything we learn, I think we would all benefit and people can choose whether or not that idea would work for them and if it was something they want to use. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Very well said. Thanks!

[[old] DIESEL]

<!--QuoteBegin-Yukon John+Jan 13 2006, 09:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Jan 13 2006, 09:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think you guys are going a bit off topic here ? I started this thread hoping it would get some discussion going about ways of strengthening the core muscles. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, I hope I gave you some you extra exercises. But more on that as I get to other points in your post. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> From what most people say, this can help decrease the chance of injury both in rowing and otherwise. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Absolutely. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Diesel, I've done this program up through level 8 and the hole way through it never takes more then ~6 minutes, so I don't think it is excessive. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I am familiar with the Legendary Abs pamphlet, (I own it. ) but I was not referring to that program - I was referring to John's bringing up Ranger's ab routine as an example of what you should be doing. What Ranger does is excessive. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd be careful with th high incline sit-ups. Yes they do work the abs, but what they work even more so is the psoas (sp?) muscles. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Only if you go all the way down at the negative part of the movement - it's hard to explain without showing you - but you can effectively remove the psoas muscle by focusing on the tension in your abs - when the psoas takes over you can definitely feel the tension shift from the ab wall to the lower back hip flexor area. Sorry, if that doesn't make sense - I'd have to show you in person. Just imagine holding yourself at the negative portion at a 30 degree angle instead of letting your back come to a rest against the incline board. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On your Topic of Ranger, he sounds like he likes to work out a lot and has found what works for himself. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Like I said, I'm not saying Ranger himself shouldn't do it because it works for him. My point was that given exercise theory, you make the argument that a lot of what he does outside the erg is superflous and may actually detract from his performance. The fact that he is able to get erg WR despite this is a testament to his physiological talent . My theory is that he has not maxed out at all and is leaving seconds on the 2K table because of all the extra stuff he's doing. I merely suggested it would be a neat experiment. Seriously, what does Ranger have to lose by trying it? There are only 2-3 guys who can beat him right now - so why not try it and see? Just a thought. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I question whether we should question what anyone else does for their exercise (unless they are doing something improperly and risk injury.) </td></tr></table><br /><br />Absolutely. I was just throwing it out there as a topic for discussion. I doubt Ranger is going to change his training routine because of something I say. However, when they throw it out there for OTHERS to follow, then I think it becomes fair game for criticism and discussion. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If we just focus on our own training and share with others anything we learn, I think we would all benefit and people can choose whether or not that idea would work for them and if it was something they want to use. </td></tr></table><br /><br />well, that's what I was trying to share with my experiences about strength training and core building. Hope you found it useful, or at the very least thought provoking. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Speaking of sharing ideas, I've posted a few tid-bits about pliometric exercises in the Eh Team thread yesterday. Feel free to check it out if you haven't already done so, and comments would be appreciated, but lets keep it on a positive note, eh ? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />well, I can't vouch for positive, depends if I agree with it or not. But I'll try to be nice. Good enough? <br /><br />D

[[old] DIESEL]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 08:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 08:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Xeno doesn't have any 2k records on the erg.<br /><br />Rich has broken the world record 3 times.<br /><br />So I think he knows much better about sit ups and V ups than you do. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Wow. What a logician!!! <br />

[[old] Yukon John]

Thanks Diesel,<br />I appreciate your feedback and your logical way of looking at things. I do think that you might have let the "other John " get to you a bit . It would be nice if you could show me how to do the inclines correctly, but since I'm a bit isolated here "north of 60" I might just stay with the legondary abs routine for working the abs and not risk doing it incorrectly. Question for you; earlier in this thead when I talked about the routine I said that I don't think adding in anything extra for the spinal erectors was necessary because they get a lot of work through rowing. Would you say that is correct or would it be beneficial to work on these muscles besides using the erg?

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-DIESEL+Jan 14 2006, 10:56 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Jan 14 2006, 10:56 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 08:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 08:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Xeno doesn't have any 2k records on the erg.<br /><br />Rich has broken the world record 3 times.<br /><br />So I think he knows much better about sit ups and V ups than you do. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Wow. What a logician!!! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Diesel,<br /><br />Check out the New Year's Resolution Team. (Link below.)

[[old] DIESEL]

<!--QuoteBegin-Yukon John+Jan 14 2006, 12:04 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Jan 14 2006, 12:04 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks Diesel,<br />I appreciate your feedback and your logical way of looking at things. I do think that you might have let the "other John " get to you a bit </td></tr></table><br /><br />What got to me was not his attack on me, but when he chumped Xeno. Just figure the balls on that dude - seriously, anything Xeno says on rowing you have to listen to - the man knows what he is talking about. <br /><br />I always say to myself that people have no clue the gem they have with Xeno - they have no clue how huge that silver medal in Sydney was. To me, that was a much more impressive performance than his gold in Atlanta. I guess to understand you have to understand the freak he was up against. Waddell was literally a rowing machine and looked unbeatable going into that final and Xeno, if not for a mistimed final push, would have beaten him in Sydney. People lose sight of that. For my money, he's the most technically perfect sculler I have ever seen. I know that's not saying much, but I've seen video of most of the great champions and you can just tell when you see him. And for this joker to shit on his accomplishments like that really pissed me off. <br /><br />The other thing is that he is really open with his knowledge and willing to share it with anyone who demonstrates an interest in the sport. I mean, seriously, how many retired athletes of his caliber are that accessible ? Certainly not Waddell, certainly not Porter. You catch my drift? <br /><br />John, I know Xeno is too much of a gentleman to bitchslap you, but that's what you deserve for that. Tool on me all you want, but respect that dude. <br /><br />When Ranger wins a gold medal in the Olympics then come talk to me. <br /><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->. It would be nice if you could show me how to do the inclines correctly, but since I'm a bit isolated here "north of 60" I might just stay with the legondary abs routine for working the abs and not risk doing it incorrectly. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Here's an idea: imagine you are doing the situps on a flat surface - instead of going all the way to your knees on the way up and all the way down to the floor on the way down - stop just short of your knees on the way up; you'll notice if you go all the way to your knees the tension on your abs decreases - that's the psoas kicking in. On the way down, stop at about a 25-30 degree angle - you'll note gravity really kicking in and working against the ab wall. If you go any lower, you'll note the tension really drops (that's the psoas kicking in again). As I said before, the key is to maintain constant tension on the ab wall. <br /><br />You can use that same movement pattern on the incline plane. Hope that visual helps to clear things up. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Question for you; earlier in this thead when I talked about the routine I said that I don't think adding in anything extra for the spinal erectors was necessary because they get a lot of work through rowing. </td></tr></table><br /> <br />Absolutely. The erectors get work through the rowing stroke, but only up to a certain point basically only as strong as they need to be to execute the rowing movement. If you want to get them any stronger you have to hit the weights. The best movements are squats (the erectors stabilize the bar on your back ); deadlifts (they keep your back tight during the drive part of the movement ) and any overhead movements done without a weight belt. This is also key - DON'T WEAR A WEIGHT BELT. You don't need one it's a crutch and anyone you see in a gym wearing one that isn't pushing upwards of 300 pounds on any exercise is probably a weenie. You'll notice you strong your core gets just from ditching the weight belt. <br /><br />the excuse of "I wear a belt so I don't hurt my back" is more like "I'm going to hurt my back, because it's so weak from wearing this belt all the time." <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would you say that is correct or would it be beneficial to work on these muscles besides using the erg?<br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Lifting weights never hurts. I'm not saying you have to lift like Arnold but 2-3x week hitting all the major muscle groups is pretty good for keeping your body looking tight and lean. And when you combine that with rowing - not only will you be strong as an ox and have the lungs of a thoroughbred - but you'll look pretty damn good <i>nekkid. </i><br /> Something I'm sure you'll significant other will more than appreciate. <br /><br />take care, <br />D

[[old] DIESEL]

<!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Jan 14 2006, 12:32 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jan 14 2006, 12:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-DIESEL+Jan 14 2006, 10:56 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Jan 14 2006, 10:56 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 08:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 08:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Xeno doesn't have any 2k records on the erg.<br /><br />Rich has broken the world record 3 times.<br /><br />So I think he knows much better about sit ups and V ups than you do. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Wow. What a logician!!! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Diesel,<br /><br />Check out the New Year's Resolution Team. (Link below.) <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />wow, Porkchop, a little too late!!! I got "Ruppitized"

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-DIESEL+Jan 14 2006, 12:20 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Jan 14 2006, 12:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When Ranger wins a gold medal in the Olympics then come talk to me. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Rich still has the WR on the erg for his age.<br /><br />There are now more people competing by rowing on ergs than in boats.<br /><br />Thus erg rowing competitions are far more competitive than is rowing on the water.<br /><br />This is illustrated by Xeno getting a gold and silver in the Olympics, yet his fastest erg time is more than 20 seconds from the WR.<br /><br />Compare this to Eskild Ebbesen and Elia Luini, who are World and Olympic champions and also consecutively broke the WR on the erg.<br /><br />I am not disparaging Xeno's performances on the water. He has been obviously very good at boating. And he is good at putting together a training program getting ready for a race, based on his limited background. However he doesn't have the same results on the erg.<br /><br />By background, I'm saying he probably is not able to do 1000 V ups and the other things every morning as does Rich. However, Xeno can verify this.<br /><br />What is very strange, since everything I have said is correct, is not why I have been pointing it out, but why you insist in disparaging someone who is much faster than you, much better than you, and has a training program that works for him, especially when you don't.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Jan 14 2006, 09:32 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jan 14 2006, 09:32 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Check out the New Year's Resolution Team.  (Link below.) </td></tr></table><br /><br />Pleaseeee join it yourself, so you won't keep trolling around reading my messages and whining and crying about them like PaulS does. <br /><br />When are you going to take your own advice eh?

[[old] Yukon John]

Thanks again Diesel, I only started rowing last summer so I haven't followed (in depth) or known who was who at past Olympics. Having your knowledge of who is who must make watching the Olympics (and other races) really fun . I do know a bit about the commitment neccessary to get to the top level of sport. I used to be heavily involved with cross-country skiing both competing and coaching and most of the top athletes are very down to earth and can be very helpful if approached (and I have a lot of respect because of both their abilities and their personalities.) It sounds like Zeno is like this. Of course there are a few around who get a bit taken with themselves . <br /><br />I'll try your inclines when I get a chance. The way you described it makes it quite clear how to do it correctly (thanks.)<br /><br /> I haven't had any fish bite yet in response to this; "Does anybody know if anyone has tried using pliometrics as part of their training plan for rowing?" I could see it being quite a help since the idea is to develop explosive power, especially beneficial in the shorter distances. I could give more info. on plio's if requested and a possible way to set up a training session. I used them with a highschool cross country ski team I was working with when I was going to Univ. in Alaska and I think it was one of the reasons that the team went from 14th at the state compitition one year to 5th the next. Anyone's 2 cents would be appreciated. John.

[[old] DIESEL]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 14 2006, 03:35 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 14 2006, 03:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br /> but why you insist in disparaging someone <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />either you cannot read or you are a complete idiot. <br /><br />nowhere in my posts have I disparaged Ranger - if anyone disparaged someone it is you, by chumping Xeno's body of work. I marvel at Ranger's physiological gifts. What he can accomplish at his age is extraordinary. I hope to be that fit at 54. I merely suggested that he can go even FASTER if he were open to changing his training methods. <br /><br />please drop this already. I'm bored with you. <br /><br />

[[old] gw1]

D<br /><br />Welcome back, i miss your SOH!<br /><br />Now who hid those big weights???????? <br /><br />GW

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-DIESEL+Jan 14 2006, 01:40 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Jan 14 2006, 01:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->nowhere in my posts have I disparaged Ranger - if anyone disparaged someone it is you, by chumping Xeno's body of work.  I marvel at Ranger's physiological gifts.  What he can accomplish at his age is extraordinary.  I hope to be that fit at 54.  I merely suggested  that he can go even FASTER if he were open to changing his training methods. </td></tr></table><br />You are disparaging him again in your message, suggesting he's broken the WR three times because of his "physiological gifts", and if only he'd stop training he'd be able to row so much faster!<br /><br />Why don't you suggest to Xeno that he starts doing 1000 V ups and situps and an hour of jumping rope every morning? After all he is more than 20 seconds from the WR for his age and weight. Look it up in his profile if you don't believe me. Is he being disparaging to himself?<br /><br />Xeno, shame on you!

[[old] Yukon John]

Hi John,<br />It seems to me that you enjoy doing some verbal dualing? But it seems to be stopping the sharing of useful information. So I'm wondering if you would please stop for a bit so that we can get back to the topic here? Thanks Much , Yukon John.