Newbie: Bad Knees - Is Rowing Bad For Them?

[[old] justinham01]

Newbie has a few questions about health EFFECTS of using erg for aerobic exercise. I am 6' and 195lbs which is a tad over weight. Would like to loose some weight and use an erg as an exercise tool. My wife and I already have a elliptical and are looking for another device so we can workout together. My whole family has Knee problems and 10 years ago I had a ACL reconstruction surgury on my knee. Since then I have trained it back to normal and am able to run 3+ miles w/o pain. I know that rowing is extremely good exercise for aerobic activity right up there w/ cross-country skiing. What I am wondering about is all of the bad press it gets around the following issues:<br /><br />1.) Rowing machines are BAD for your KNEES (and worse if you already have knee problems).<br />2.) Rowing machines often can cause BACK PROBLEMS or make back problems worse.<br /><br />Are the above two issues really drawbacks of rowing or is it purely problems with proper technique? If it is purely technique, what is the best way to make sure you are executing proper rowing habits when you are a newbie? <br /><br />Can I and should I continue to look at a rowing machine for exercise if I already have Knee problems? <br /><br />Thanks,<br />Justin<br />

[[old] pduck]

I had always heard that rowing is one of the better exercises that you can do if you DO have knee problems. Make sure that your shins don't go beyond vertical at the catch. Certainly, if you can run 3 miles, you should be able to erg without any problems at all.<br /><br />As far as back problems, I can't speak with any authority, but if you make sure your posture is good while you row, you should be OK. I get a sore upper back, but I think that is more due to sore muscles.

[[old] Cassiopeia]

I'm not sure about the knees- although I had some minor knee/ankle problems with the impact from running, and rowing/ergging has never given me problems in either area.<br /><br />As for back problems- the only way you can really get back problems from rowing/ergging is if you do it wrong. Make sure to sit up straight, but not to overextend (as I do- it's when your back curves inward), all the way through the stroke. At finish, don't lean back further than your abs can hold you, release your arms fast, back fast, and make sure to bend at the waist, not curve your shoulders. During the recovery, as long as you hinge completely at the waist, and keep that angle strong throughout the rest of the recovery and the drive, you'll be transferring the energy properly through your arms into your legs, and it shouldn't be a problem. Good abs help you sit straight at the finish and throughout the rest of the stroke, so working on those will help a lot.

[[old] FrankJ]

Justin,<br /><br />I have had a disk problem with my back for over 30 years and have learned to live with it. I was a runner for almost 30 years but gave it up because of problems with my right knee. Took up erging 2 1/2 years ago and have logged about 5.4 million meters. No knee problems or back problems but do yourself a favor and find someone to show you how to do it right from the start.<br /><br />Frank

[[old] Eric]

I'm a Disabled Vet (60%), severe degenerative arthritis left knee, bone on bone, need a replacement, but the Doc says "you don't have enough pain". Anyway, Ive been erging for 8 years. I can't come close to a full leg bend, only about 40 degrees, but I can still pull under 7:30 and did a 1:36 personal best 500m once. I'm almost 60, and I credit the Concept2 erg with delaying my knee surgery. Coupled with weight training for upper body strength, I'm planning to win my class next year in the Mid-Winter Meltdown here in Madison, WI. I highly encourage you to not hesitate to start a Concept2 program. You'll be glad you did! Good luck and keep people posted as to your progress.

[[old] SlugButt]

Eric, you are truly impressive!!<br /><br />I might add to the voices here by suggesting considering keeping the damper settings fairly light (maybe drag factor of around 140 for a heavyweight male). When I was young I was in the habit of training with very heavy settings but now find that my knees are no longer so happy doing that. <br /><br />The other consideration is that if you hyperextend your knees at the finish it may be helpful to make some sort of thing that would simulate your calves hitting the seat deck. Fifteen years ago someone at MIT was making things like this out of wood for the Model B, but I haven't seen anything like it for a Model C or D. It's easy to make your own from a piece of wood, though. Let me know if you'd like me to email you pictures.<br /><br />David

[[old] SimonB]

Although not strictly rowing releated<br /><br />When I dislocated my left knee cap some 20+ years ago, I found that cycling was the best way to get it back in shape. Of course, it was not a chronic problem with disintergrating body parts......<br /><br />I have never had any problem with indoor rowing and my knees, I cannot do impact sports, they murder my joints something rotten. <br /><br />Eric: Congratulations on your fantastic times.

[[old] justinham01]

Thanks everyone for the words of advice. I am going to look at a Concept2 at a local place here in Michigan. Look forward to getting more fit and enjoying to continue to use these forums for motivation!<br /><br />Justin

[[old] brianric]

I have osteoarthritis of the left knee. In fact the pain was so great last Wednesday at Yucca Mountain I had to be carried off the bus. No problem rowing, however, is confusing the daylights out of my doctor. Expect to have knee surgery in the next month or so.

[[old] Byron Drachman]

Hi Justin,<br /><br />Something else that might help would be to try shortening the slide forward: Instead of bringing the shins to vertical at the catch, don't even go that far forward with your legs. You can still relax your shoulders and reach forward with your arms and get a forward lean at the catch, and have a decently long stroke. In fact, you probably won't notice much of a loss in your pace at all, since the very first part of the drive with the shins near vertical doesn't give you much leverage with your knees that bent anyway. Anyway, I find that works for me and keeps my knees feeling good. I happen to walk with a toe-out position of the feet, and I find that rowing strapless allows me to row with the feet more like the natural position they have when I'm walking, and that also seems to help keep my knees from hurting.<br /><br />Byron

[[old] Eric]

<!--QuoteBegin-SlugButt+Feb 19 2005, 10:56 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(SlugButt @ Feb 19 2005, 10:56 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Eric, you are truly impressive!!<br /><br />I might add to the voices here by suggesting considering keeping the damper settings fairly light (maybe drag factor of around 140 for a heavyweight male).  When I was young I was in the habit of training with very heavy settings but now find that my knees are no longer so happy doing that.  <br /><br />The other consideration is that if you hyperextend your knees at the finish it may be helpful to make some sort of thing that would simulate your calves hitting the seat deck.  Fifteen years ago someone at MIT was making things like this out of wood for the Model B, but I haven't seen anything like it for a Model C or D.  It's easy to make your own from a piece of wood, though.  Let me know if you'd like me to email you pictures.<br /><br />David <br /> </td></tr></table>Thanks for the feedback, David and Simon! I guess what I meant was that on the catch, my heels are at least 24 in. away from my butt. I simply can't bend my left knee any more than that. As far as damper setting, I run at 3. We still have the C's at my gym and I'm actively lobbying for at least 2 D models. Are they that much better? Problem being they are putting in two new pools, and guess what takes priority! Ergs are not understood with the majority of the members at my gym. I was about 8K into a 10K piece last night, and a large (that's kind), woman sat down next to me, slapped it up to 10 with her foot, and left after 3 minutes (I counted), of something that had to be seen to be believed. I was too embarrassed to even watch her. David, I would be very interested in seeing the mod pictures with the wood. Thanks. hpangman@charter.net Thanks again guys for the kind compliments. <br />

[[old] shu246]

My thoughts on how to avoid back problems from improper rowing:<br />1) keep the back straight, not curved; bend at waiste. (chin up a bit seems to help this.)<br />2) keep the elbows behind he knees; don't reach too far forward on the catch. (imagine a broomstick resting across the arms at the elbows. on the forward reach, do not let the imaginary broomstick pass into the legs.)<br /><br />As to knee problems, i am not a physician or surgeon. I have found that when (for variety) i end the pull stroke with a balistic coast which sends the leg bones and knees into tension (vs the usual compression) i pick up some knee pain later in the day. This would be classed as abuse of body and machine and best avoided.<br />

[[old] Ducatista]

<!--QuoteBegin-SlugButt+Feb 19 2005, 09:56 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(SlugButt @ Feb 19 2005, 09:56 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I might add to the voices here by suggesting considering keeping the damper settings fairly light (maybe drag factor of around 140 for a heavyweight male). </td></tr></table><br />I'll second that. Lower drag is kinder to my back. (Or maybe I just have better technique at a lower damper setting — either way, it works for me.)<br /><br />Hi Eric, nice to see a fellow Madisonian on the board.

[[old] pduck]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ducatista+Mar 7 2005, 12:09 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ducatista @ Mar 7 2005, 12:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Hi Eric, nice to see a fellow Madisonian on the board. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'm from Appleton!

[[old] Eric]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ducatista+Mar 7 2005, 01:09 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ducatista @ Mar 7 2005, 01:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SlugButt+Feb 19 2005, 09:56 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(SlugButt @ Feb 19 2005, 09:56 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I might add to the voices here by suggesting considering keeping the damper settings fairly light (maybe drag factor of around 140 for a heavyweight male). </td></tr></table><br />I'll second that. Lower drag is kinder to my back. (Or maybe I just have better technique at a lower damper setting — either way, it works for me.)<br /><br />Hi Eric, nice to see a fellow Madisonian on the board. <br /> </td></tr></table>Same here! It that as in Ducati? I'm an avid motorcyclist and tourer. Own a Kawasaki ZRX1200R presently. <br />