Wolverine Plan Discussion

[old] Thomas · Post by **[old] Thomas** » November 7th, 2005, 4:33 am

If the discussion here is still the Wolverine Plan, I want to express how I have found the importance of also the 4 x 1k session in guaging 2k ability. 8 x 500 meters is good, but I have found 4 x 1k is better at really testing myself. I do this session with 5-minutes rest. I tried to row the 1000 meters as recovery in-between pieces, but the rest appeared to get too long so, I limit myself to 5 minutes rest. It had been several months were I had actually done this session with all four 1k's. I had been avoiding the session because of problems completing it. I am so glad to share here that I got it done at below a goal pace of 1:36. From my notes: Level 1 4 x 1k with 5-minutes rest. 150 drag. 1. 1:35.6 @ 31 spm 2. 1:35.3 @ 31 spm 3. 1:35.7 @ 32 spm 4. 1:35.9 @ 32 spm Average: 1:35.625 It has been several months were I have completed all four 1k's. Additionally, I don't recall doing them this fast. After the second piece, I considered finishing the last two at 1:35 but recalled how I have not done all four in quite a while. The last piece was a real test. Felt gagging coming on in the last 100 meters and did gag in the last 30 meters. Very excited in the last 300 meters that I was going to get this session completed at goal pace (1:36). Could really feel it in my legs. Previous 1k sessions: August 11th: Took 10-minutes rest after fourth piece. August 2nd: In fourth piece, stopped after 350-meters and did 2 x 500 meters July 19th: 4th piece became 500-meter piece. July 12th: Abandoned fourth piece after 500-meters July 8th, 1k Time Trial 2:59.9

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » November 7th, 2005, 7:35 am

Congrats on completing the session. How do think it relates to your 2k score? Could you do 1:35.625 average = 6:22.5 for a 2k or how much faster could you go?

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » November 7th, 2005, 9:36 am

Thomas, This will always be a Wolverine Plan discussion, regardless of the hijacking and off-topic attempts. Nice job with finishing the 4x1k. I'm still able to lower my average pace each week, but it's getting harder. Finishing the prior work is the key for me to be able to get this workout done. The mental side looms pretty large at times. I try to negative split this workout, which means I start a bit slower but it's still on my goal pace for the workout. Anyway, thanks for the relevant post on an actual Wolverine Plan workout.

[old] Thomas · Post by **[old] Thomas** » November 7th, 2005, 12:19 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Carl Henrik @ Nov 7 2005, 03:35 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Congrats on completing the session. How do think it relates to your 2k score? Could you do 1:35.625 average = 6:22.5 for a 2k or how much faster could you go? </td></tr></table> June 28th was the last time I did a 2k where I scored a 6:26.0. I should be able to get under 6:24 based on the results of that 1k session.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » November 7th, 2005, 12:44 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(bmoore @ Nov 7 2005, 12:54 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>A follow up to my Level 4 pacing education: Tonight I did 60', alternating 184/188. I used PaulS suggestion to concentrate on the stroke rate, and I found it much easier to do this when I was concentrating on hitting the rate first, and then letting the pace come with it. I noticed that it was essentially maintaining the same intensity/feel/pull with the rate changes. (I think Mike's said this before, but I didn't understand it until tonight, when I started to feel the shifts. "To feel is to believe"...Ed Parker). I also was able to make the shifts in about 2 strokes. I also didn't overstroke this workout like I did last time. Maybe it was just the training coming together, but I specifically focused on getting the rates right and making a quick transisition between rates. I believe this one focus point can help people "get" this workout. I'd like to suggest that people put the metronones and counting strategy away for a few weeks with this workout in order to get the feel down. I believe that once you get this feel down, that you won't have to think about it anymore. You can then concentrate on the timing and shifts with each sequence. Anyone else find something like this after working Level 4 for a few weeks? </td></tr></table> Bill: I have not been doing these a full week yet -- just three L4 workouts actually. I find it much, much easier to get the rate correct first, and then make sure the pressure (pace) is correct. Trying to do both is much more a crapshoot for me. It does appear to me that it's a "even pressure" process. It seems that similar pressure at (in my case since I started at the very bottom of the chart) 16 and 18 SPM will yield the pace desired. My problem is keeping that "feel" of the pressure while also changing the rate. I liken it to that old game of patting yourself on the head and rubbing your stomach at the same time. Once you get it, you get it, but while you're trying to get it, it's almost comical -- a great demonstration of lack of coodination. BTW, I still don't "get it", but I think I'm getting better. I'm not a real coordinated guy to begin with -- ball sports were never my forte. In fact, I suck at all the ball sports. The only thing I do with any real coordination is snow ski (alpine). RowPro is a great tool to map the average rate and pace during the pieces to really analyze where you go off the plan. I will say that doing 40' to 70' pieces is much less psychologically demanding with the variety of the 10' and 6' sequences. In relation to a straight 60' piece the six 10' sequences fly by in comparison. I'll also say that it's quite a workout even though the average pace of the piece is much, much slower than I would do a typical 60' row -- but it's clear that I'm using more power per stroke but many less strokes. The work is done differently. It works well with a "Routine is the Enemy" philosophy around fitness training, as the L4 workouts are quite a "change up" from L1/L2/L3 which are either intervals, or faster, even-pace pieces. Now I just need to start creeping up the chart by adding the 4 strokes per workout recommended. Where did you start and how fast did you progress? -- Mark

[old] arakawa · Post by **[old] arakawa** » November 7th, 2005, 2:56 pm

Confessions of a Wolverine Plan Newbie Day 1: Level 1 / 8x500 @ 2k -1 After a 2k warmup (I believe the WP calls for a lot more than eight minutes of warmup, especially before a Level 1 workout), I did an 8x500 this morning with a target pace of 1:46.8 (2k reference pace = 1:47.8), with a 500 m recovery piece between each interval at 2:32. Actual times = 1:46.7, 1:46.8, 1:46.8, 1:46.8, 1:46.7, 1:46.7, 1:46.8, 1:45.5 --> ave = 1:46.6 Observations:<ul><li>Active recovery makes a big difference. After my second interval, based on how hard I thought I could pull when feeling this tired, I was thinking there was no way I could pull another 500 m at 1:46.8, let alone another six. But as I pulled my recovery pieces, I progressively felt good enough for another work piece.</li><li>2k -1 is a good starting point for an 8x500. It was tough - I was breathing really hard after each work piece - but achievable - I had enough gas to put it into a higher gear for the last interval.</li><li>Maintaining the macro splits (i.e. the overall interval times) is not too hard. In each of the first seven intervals, I was showing 1:46.8 with 20 m to go. The three intervals I finished at 1:46.7 were those where I pulled a bit harder on the last two strokes. Of my seven recovery pieces, four were 2:32.0, two were 2:32.1, and one was 2:31.9.</li><li>Maintaining the micro splits (i.e. the instantaneous splits) is a bit harder. After the first four or so strokes to get within 0.5 s of my goal split, my instantaneous splits were between 1:44 and 1:49. During the recovery pieces, my first stroke was over 3:00, but down to 2:32 after 250 m.</li></ul> After my last work interval, I promptly fell off the erg. Suffice it to say, I did not cool down for 15' - 20', let alone stretch. The next time I do an 8x500 (scheduled for three weeks from today), I'll use a goal pace of 1:46.6.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » November 7th, 2005, 5:16 pm

arakawa: I did the exact same w/o today -- my reference pace is 1:54 from a 7:38.2 best for 2K. I rounded down. I am almost as new to the Wolverine Plan as you are. I've done these twice before. I averaged 1:58.4 the first time (10/1) with a target to be under 2:00 for each, and 1:53.7 the second time (10/28) with a target to be under 1:54 for each. For these, my PB for 2K was just over 7:59. Based on the new PB, I shot for 1:52 today, and achieved: 1:51.8 1:51.8 1:51.8 1:51.7 1:51.7 1:51.2 1:51.6 1:49.1 AVG: 1:51.3 Since I did a 4 x 1,000 last week at an average of 1:53.8 when I had a target of 1:54, I feel I should have set a faster target for these 500M pieces, but feared dropping too much too fast and having the wheels come off. I'd be interested in the corelation between the 8x500 and 4x1000 times of others. In my case, I'm shooting for a 2 sec. pace difference now. Should it be higher? Should I just keep dropping until I fall apart and miss the target on a set and then back off? I also do active recovery for these -- same distance at just under 2:30 pace. It's faster than the recovery pace suggested for 1:54, but it suits me. I do a 1K warmup and 1K cool down and do the recovery after each of the 8, even the last one. The 1Ks I do at 2:15 just to get things moving. -- Mark

[old] Mike Caviston · Post by **[old] Mike Caviston** » November 7th, 2005, 5:24 pm

So it sounds like good advice for Level 4 newbies is to concentrate first on getting the desired rates on command, and paces will eventually fall into place. While this may be difficult at first, practice is key, and it shouldn’t take more than a couple sessions before some improvement occurs. When I have a little more time next week I plan to revisit the topics of warm-up and active recovery. But my workout this morning was 4 x 1K, and since that workout has recently been mentioned, let me make a few observations. (I said quite a bit about this a few months ago on another thread. <a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... =2054&st=0' target='_blank'>Previous Comments</a>) 4 x 1K is both the toughest and most valuable workout I do to prepare for 2Ks. For the fall I have been doing it only every third week (in January I plan to start doing it every alternate week). Last week I did a 2K trial instead of a Level 1 workout, so it had been four weeks since I last did 4 x 1K. I was plenty nervous before hand, but the workout went well. Even though I shouldn’t have been surprised based on the overall progress of my training, it’s always good to see the general progress confirmed with good execution of a tough workout. The results (including my sub-interval pacing format): 1st piece GP: 1:35.4 [actual time & pace: 3:10.4 (1:35.2)] 200m GP: 1:37 [actual pace: 1:37.0] 400m GP: 1:36 [actual: 1:35.8] 600m GP: 1:35 [1:34.8] 800m GP: 1:35 [1:34.8] 1000m GP: 1:34 [1:33.8] 2nd piece GP: 1:35.2 [3:10.1 (1:35.1)] 200m GP: 1:37 [1:36.8] 400m GP: 1:36 [1:35.8] 600m GP: 1:35 [1:35.0] 800m GP: 1:34 [1:33.8] 1000m GP: 1:34 [1:34.0] 3rd piece GP: 1:35.2 [3:10.0 (1:35.0)] 200m GP: 1:37 [1:36.8] 400m GP: 1:36 [1:35.8] 600m GP: 1:35 [1:34.8] 800m GP: 1:34 [1:33.8] 1000m GP: 1:34 [1:34.0] 4th piece GP: 1:35.0 [3:09.7 (1:34.9)] 200m GP: 1:37 [1:36.8] 400m GP: 1:36 [1:35.8] 600m GP: 1:35 [1:34.8] 800m GP: 1:34 [1:34.0] 1000m GP: 1:33 [1:33.0] So I beat my overall goal for the workout by .2 seconds, which is pretty rare for me (I generally either get the goal exactly or sometimes go .1 sec under), but my goal was a little conservative. Splitting each 1K into 200m segments makes things go by a lot quicker since each segment only lasts about 38 seconds so I’m constantly reaching another milestone and I have plenty to think about in the meantime trying to hold my pace and rate objective for each segment. My final 200m @ 1:33 wasn’t pretty (became short & rushed), but every other segment went smoothly. Several weeks ago when my overall GP was 1:36-ish, the 1:34 pace wasn’t very pretty. Now I’m handling it pretty well, and the hope is I will eventually have good technique @ 1:33 as well. This is probably a good opportunity to remind everyone (as the discussion shifts around between different WP training Levels) that all Levels are integral to the overall Plan and all need to be addressed with equal concern for detail. Happy training. Mike Caviston

[old] Guy_W · Post by **[old] Guy_W** » November 7th, 2005, 5:58 pm

experimenting with -ve splits: 1. +ve: last 4x1k and 4x2k sessions. Attempted with detailed plan and -ve split targets for each piece and each 1/5th segment within each piece (a la Mike C's recent notes, pretty significant and formal -ve splitting). Great results, psychological breakthrough, never done these workouts with so little pain! Almost left looking forward to next week/fortnight (in case of 4x1k). 2. -ve: never minded 8x500 anywhere near as much as those above. Always used to start at last time's pace and see if could go faster last 2 or 3. Practicaly a quote! Anyway, curious me felt that last week's 4x1k was so cool that I'd see what 8x500@X was like doing X+0.6/X+0.2/4xX/X-0.2/X-0.6 and each 500 split into 5 segments. Each segment done a la 4x1k type pacing. eg. X+2/X+1/X/X/X-1.............I think I discovered something already known by some........ I couldn't cope after 4 intervals, and whilst "near death" / "no way 8" is a familiar experience at 3/4/5 intervals I was really dying/feeling faint/dizzy etc. Managed to start 5th but binned the extreme -ve splitting and did much flatter (target X+0.5/X/X/X/X-0.5) interval. Survived, managed 6th/7th and 8th all faster. 2. ctd However, and this is a first time in 4 years of recording HBs and intervals, whilst each interval's pace increased 3/4/5/6/7/8th, max 2 HBs were achieved at 3rd and 4th intervals when still doing "X+2/.../X-1" type splits. Yes, 100m is short and upping pace every 20 secs is harsh but I was surprised how seriously hard this seemed, especially after my positive experieces with this pacing, even on 4x1k. Could argue down to warm up but I'd done a hard 12 mins before each session and even so the striking thing for me is that I've never gone faster for less HB stress in an interval session before. Provisional lesson: 500m at 4secs pace spread really does cause high stress/demands. Oh well, live and learn (the hard way) (and not confusing high stress with "bad" or "low stress" with optimal pacing) Guy

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » November 7th, 2005, 5:59 pm

Mike: Great explanation. It seems to me -- King Newbie -- that the way the plan is structured (or your explanations here) you take into account the psychological aspects of training ... splitting up the 1Ks into 200M segments, negative micro-splits (200M), etc. etc. This is similar (with respect to the head) to the rate and pace breakdowns of the L4 workouts. It appears you feel it's important to have something technical to focus on, or is this just a byproduct of the plan? I'd also be interested in your perspective on the differential recommendations in terms of pace for 8x500, 4x1000, and the pyramid of 250/500/750/1K/750/500/250. Or should they be the same since the average distance covered is same or similar? I do see in the plan that it's recommended to start at 2K reference pace, and then "let it develop". Should one just start to slowly drive the pace up with every repeat of the specific workout? Any advice on how much each time or how to determine "next step"? I also see that I need to focus the active recovery on being low SPM (16-18) at the target recovery rate rather than higher SPM at 2:30 pace. I now realize, after reading this again and again, that this is trying to achieve, during active recovery, perhaps a conditioning of the body and mind for a "more power per stroke" advance in performance -- consistent training for consistent performance (even during recovery). Cool stuff. -- Mark

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » November 7th, 2005, 11:33 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(mpukita @ Nov 7 2005, 05:16 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I'd be interested in the corelation between the 8x500 and 4x1000 times of others. [right] </td></tr></table> I have 4.4 seconds between my 4x1k and 8x500m sessions. 4 seconds was recommended to me a few months ago, and it seems to have held true. I've done both of these workouts several times now, and have established these workouts on their own, so I can now crank them down individually instead of comparing them. Get more aggressive on your 500m sets. I'm off to do mine with a 1:38 goal pace.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » November 7th, 2005, 11:37 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(bmoore @ Nov 7 2005, 11:33 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(mpukita @ Nov 7 2005, 05:16 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I'd be interested in the corelation between the 8x500 and 4x1000 times of others. [right] </td></tr></table> I have 4.4 seconds between my 4x1k and 8x500m sessions. 4 seconds was recommended to me a few months ago, and it seems to have held true. I've done both of these workouts several times now, and have established these workouts on their own, so I can now crank them down individually instead of comparing them. Get more aggressive on your 500m sets. I'm off to do mine with a 1:38 goal pace. </td></tr></table> Bill: Thanks. I'm convinced I need to do as you've suggested. Regards -- Mark

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 7th, 2005, 11:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Surely if you have set out a plan then it would be set in some sort of text format without all the mumbo jumbo in between. </td></tr></table> <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Too long.............got bored after the first paragraph of the 2nd post. Ive heard of a post mortem on training, but there is a limit </td></tr></table> I find these comments very helpful.

[old] Will · Post by **[old] Will** » November 8th, 2005, 7:01 am

John, go back to your own thread!

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » November 8th, 2005, 9:12 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Will @ Nov 8 2005, 07:01 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>John, go back to your own thread! </td></tr></table> Please don't feed the animals. They'll get used to human presence and begin to harass other unsuspecting humans.

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