Erratic Start At Lactate Testing

[old] dougsurf · Post by **[old] dougsurf** » February 4th, 2006, 11:03 pm

Greetings, I've taken the plunge with the Lactate Pro, but am not too confident in my initial tries at measurement. I went through my first nine strips today with the following results: 1) Resting after day of recovery. "lo" reading, which means below 0.8. 2) Tried again immediately. "lo" again. Am I acid depleted? Started easy workout of a low range step test. 5x2k, 3 minute rests to measure L. 3) 2k@2:15 warmup. HR 117. L reading 7.2 Something's just wrong. 4) Tried again over the next minute. L reading 1.1. Wonder how much it came down over three minutes of rest. 5)2k@2:00. HR 138. L reading "lo". This is weird. It's where I've done most of my recent Steady State work. 6)Immediately measured again. L reading "lo". I must BE the "Lactate Pro"! 7)2k@1:55, HR 155, L reading 1.6 . Maybe, but I've thought I should be over 2 by this point. 8)2k@1:50, HR 170, L reading 3.0 . Finally budging. But 3.0 seems low for a HR170, which by the way seems high for a 1:50. 9)2k@2:15, HR 128, L reading 1.3. Would believe it and be pleased, except for all of the above. So if anyone has any suggestions, feel free. I chose this brand due to the 3%CV spec, but I don't believe it. I did take all the care I could in letting the alcohol dry on my earlobe, wiping and discarding the first drop to avoid sweat, etc. I don't think my earlobe broke much of a sweat anyway. And of course, the check strip says the meter is fine. One odd thing is that the literature states that most measurement errors cause higher readings. I am nursing a bit of a cold, and I did enjoy a couple glasses of wine with dinner last night, some 18 hours beforehand, if that matters. I'll certainly be taking more tests in the future and will report, but suggestions welcomed. Thanks, Doug

[old] TomR/the elder · Post by **[old] TomR/the elder** » February 5th, 2006, 3:26 pm

Doug-- This isn't a topic about which I know a thing, but I am interested. I expect you'll sort it out, and I look forward to hearing further reports, both of the tests and what they mean for your training. Tom

[old] SlugButt · Post by **[old] SlugButt** » February 5th, 2006, 4:16 pm

Howdy! I'm still learning on this stuff myself, but am glad you're posting on this topic. For me, it took repeated practice before I started to get results that were reliable. I haven't practiced for a while since I lent my kit to a friend. However, from what I recall the biggest difficulty I had was with getting an adequate blood sample. I was pricking my fingers to get a sample, and found that generally my skin was too thick to get a good sample much of the time. What ended up working best for me was pricking the side of my ring finger or little finger and using a pipette to collect the sample and then put it on the test strip, soaking the target area. I've been following a program that sets training bands by /500m splits, calculated by adding or subtracting values from 6k average splits. I found that my lactatae levels for 2mmol/l and 4mmol/l were pretty much right on target for the splits designated by the progam I have been using, which I was very happy to find. My heart rate does not seem to fit with the predicted % of max for the training bands, however. From what I've read, my current bias is to put more faith in lactate levels than heart rate. Therefore, I was pleased with the results and with confirmation that I seem to be approaching training correctly (at least I hope!). I haven't been restesting lactate levels frequently enough, and recently have been relying more on watching changes in 6k times when I do occasional re-testing. I'll start again when I get my testing kit returned to me, though, since having two streams of data (erg times and lactate shifts) is nice. I'd love to be able to learn from Xeno how he put lactate testing to work in his training (e.g., how often he re-tested, if he did testing for erg and for cross training such as bicycle, etc.). David

[old] TomR/the elder · Post by **[old] TomR/the elder** » February 5th, 2006, 4:53 pm

Slug-- The book "Rowing Faster" has a chapter by Xeno's coach, and he describes latate testing protocols in it (pp.51-53), one on an erg and another for a boat. He writes: "I have found it necessary to reasses athletes at regular intervals, as the body adapts fairly quickly to increases in workload." He said he conducts the erg step test once every two months. A little later he writes that you need to reasses every 10 weeks (that may refer to on the water testing). As you note, maybe Xeno will chime in. Tom

[old] Mike McGuirk · Post by **[old] Mike McGuirk** » February 5th, 2006, 6:35 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(SlugButt @ Feb 5 2006, 04:16 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Howdy! ... I've been following a program that sets training bands by /500m splits, calculated by adding or subtracting values from 6k average splits. I found that my lactatae levels for 2mmol/l and 4mmol/l were pretty much right on target for the splits designated by the progam I have been using, which I was very happy to find. My heart rate does not seem to fit with the predicted % of max for the training bands, however. From what I've read, my current bias is to put more faith in lactate levels than heart rate. Therefore, I was pleased with the results and with confirmation that I seem to be approaching training correctly (at least I hope!). ... David </td></tr></table> David, I'd love to hear more about your training program if you would be willing. I also am very frustrated with defining bands by HR. It is just too variable from one day to the next. Correlating lactate and split times makes a lot of sense to me. MM

[old] SlugButt · Post by **[old] SlugButt** » February 5th, 2006, 8:38 pm

TomR - Thanks for mentioning Rowing Faster - an excellent book! Clearly I need to pick it up again. I sounds like you've really done your homework. Mike - The training program I'm following is put together by Marlene Royle (www.RoyleRow.com). She's a former elite lightweight sculler, is assistant director at Craftsbury, etc. When I started sculling again I found that my body would no longer tolerate the "shut up and row harder" approach that I could manage when I was younger, and I started to have problems with overtraining and injuries. I was out of shape enough so that I wasn't able to follow training schedules I had done in the past. Marlene has done a very nice job of putting together an individual program that has progressed as my conditioning has improved. The program itself fits nicely with what exercise physiologists are writing about training volume for different levels of intensity, and I've been largely injury free and have been enjoying my training more. I don't mean to imply that I'm blindingly fast - I'm certainly not. However, this is a program that is providing measurable incremental improvements and that I am comfortable following. For me, the periodic test pieces and occasional lactate testing are in part to reset training bands and in part to remind myself that I'm progressing and need to stick with the plan rather than ramp up intensity and risk overtraining. David

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » February 5th, 2006, 10:45 pm

Hi Truely, I use the lactate testing in a very simple way. First the goal is to figure out what lactate the athlete pushes for long distance work and then the target heart rate will be adjusted. Secondly lactate testing is used to determine if the method of training keeps positively developing the aerobic capacity. When cross training is part of an exercise program it is very useful to check lactate levels for long distance training for those different forms of exercises and adjust the heart rate accordingly. Other details are: If you are on the atkins diet you produce less lactic acid during long distance steady state, interesting effect, but I will not try it again... If you did a hard weight lifting session, you will have a higher rest lactate level the day after and as long as you feel tender muscles. If you are slightly sick, without even feeling symptoms, your lactate levels will be higher rapidly. As for Doug's results the last three made sense the others not. Resting lactate can be below 0.8. Usually it ranges from "lo" to 1.4. When you start rowing steadily it is not unusual to drop lactate level under the rest level. When we do nothing we tend to not use much aerobic energy. The story could go on... XENO

[old] dougsurf · Post by **[old] dougsurf** » February 5th, 2006, 11:53 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(SlugButt @ Feb 5 2006, 01:16 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Howdy! I'm still learning on this stuff myself, but am glad you're posting on this topic. For me, it took repeated practice before I started to get results that were reliable. I haven't practiced for a while since I lent my kit to a friend. However, from what I recall the biggest difficulty I had was with getting an adequate blood sample. I was pricking my fingers to get a sample, and found that generally my skin was too thick to get a good sample much of the time. What ended up working best for me was pricking the side of my ring finger or little finger and using a pipette to collect the sample and then put it on the test strip, soaking the target area. I've been following a program that sets training bands by /500m splits, calculated by adding or subtracting values from 6k average splits. I found that my lactatae levels for 2mmol/l and 4mmol/l were pretty much right on target for the splits designated by the progam I have been using, which I was very happy to find. My heart rate does not seem to fit with the predicted % of max for the training bands, however. From what I've read, my current bias is to put more faith in lactate levels than heart rate. Therefore, I was pleased with the results and with confirmation that I seem to be approaching training correctly (at least I hope!). I haven't been restesting lactate levels frequently enough, and recently have been relying more on watching changes in 6k times when I do occasional re-testing. I'll start again when I get my testing kit returned to me, though, since having two streams of data (erg times and lactate shifts) is nice. I'd love to be able to learn from Xeno how he put lactate testing to work in his training (e.g., how often he re-tested, if he did testing for erg and for cross training such as bicycle, etc.). David </td></tr></table> Thanks for the input David. I've had similar issues drawing enough blood. Lancet is set to kill, but I still get very small droplets without nursing it. Have gotten a very thorough reply from the Lactate Pro rep. Impressive on a weekend. Two mistakes I think I was making were 1) too much alcohol cleansing. Once per session enough. and 2) squeezing too hard to milk it. A likely cause of contamination. Today went a bit better for the three measurements taken. One, after a thorough warmup before an intense piece, read 4.4. Could be a bit high, or could be that my warm-ups are too intense, which would be very interesting feedback. After a tough 1500m, it read 11.6, which could be right. After a 4k cooldown at 2:15, it was 2.8. Normal? Will take me quite a few more tries to tell. Don't think I'll go for a total profile attempt again until I'm past this cold, and well past a competition I have next week. Thanks, Doug

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » February 5th, 2006, 11:59 pm

Hi Doug This looks accurate and your interpretation of your warm up is good. It puts aerobic capacity in a whole new perspective. XENO

[old] dougsurf · Post by **[old] dougsurf** » February 6th, 2006, 12:33 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Xeno @ Feb 5 2006, 08:59 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> It puts aerobic capacity in a whole new perspective. XENO </td></tr></table> It certainly does! If I can get settled down to 3% accuracies, this thing could be a real eye opener. Thanks for lending your expert eyes to those of us flying blind. - Doug

[old] Mike McGuirk · Post by **[old] Mike McGuirk** » February 6th, 2006, 11:06 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(SlugButt @ Feb 5 2006, 08:38 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>... Mike - The training program I'm following is put together by Marlene Royle (www.RoyleRow.com). She's a former elite lightweight sculler, is assistant director at Craftsbury, etc. When I started sculling again I found that my body would no longer tolerate the "shut up and row harder" approach that I could manage when I was younger, and I started to have problems with overtraining and injuries. I was out of shape enough so that I wasn't able to follow training schedules I had done in the past. Marlene has done a very nice job of putting together an individual program that has progressed as my conditioning has improved. The program itself fits nicely with what exercise physiologists are writing about training volume for different levels of intensity, and I've been largely injury free and have been enjoying my training more. I don't mean to imply that I'm blindingly fast - I'm certainly not. However, this is a program that is providing measurable incremental improvements and that I am comfortable following. For me, the periodic test pieces and occasional lactate testing are in part to reset training bands and in part to remind myself that I'm progressing and need to stick with the plan rather than ramp up intensity and risk overtraining. David </td></tr></table> Excellent! Thanks, David. MM

[old] TomR/the elder · Post by **[old] TomR/the elder** » February 6th, 2006, 1:27 pm

Mike, If my memory is accurate, you can go to the Craftsbury Sculling site and under the Technical Tips (I think) you will find the basics of Marlene's training program, developed w/ Ed McNelley, the Candian physiologist. Tom

[old] Mike McGuirk · Post by **[old] Mike McGuirk** » February 6th, 2006, 3:45 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Feb 6 2006, 01:27 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Mike, If my memory is accurate, you can go to the Craftsbury Sculling site and under the Technical Tips (I think) you will find the basics of Marlene's training program, developed w/ Ed McNelley, the Candian physiologist. Tom </td></tr></table> Thanks, Tom. You're right. The library of tech tips is available <a href='http://craftsbury.com/row/techTip.php' target='_blank'>here.</a> Good stuff. Thanks, MM

[old] adambalogh · Post by **[old] adambalogh** » February 23rd, 2006, 8:47 pm

Doug i wonder how the lactate testing is proceeding for you? please tell me if you performed a test to determine your heart rate zones for various intensities and if you did, whether you did a step test or a FaCT test? thanks Adam

[old] dougsurf · Post by **[old] dougsurf** » February 24th, 2006, 1:05 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(adambalogh @ Feb 23 2006, 04:47 PM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Doug i wonder how the lactate testing is proceeding for you? please tell me if you performed a test to determine your heart rate zones for various intensities and if you did, whether you did a step test or a FaCT test? thanks Adam </td></tr></table> Hi Adam, Thanks for asking. Glad to see some interest. Unfortunately, my entire rowing/erging life has been on hold as I recover from a nasty cold, and a suspected bout of overtraining. Was saving more L-testing until feeling half way normal. Just about there now and I'm planning a profile test this coming weekend. One thing I HAVE been able to do is lots of reading on the subject. Many different takes. Step test, FaCT test, Xeno's KISS principle, ... I bought this nifty CD tutorial from www.lactate.com. Much there that seems to make sense. I am planning on doing a small handful of steps that will hopefully run from 1.5 through 4.0 or therebouts. Then I'll try their all out "anearobic capacity" test that sheds light on interpreting the lower levels. Will definitely plot the lower levels against HR and pace, but nothing higher. Anyway, just repeating book talk now. Will let you know when I actually do it. - Doug

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