Spm Increase Split Doesn't Increase

[[old] NJhsRower]

for some reason even as my spm increases i can't seem to get my split much lower. it seems that it barely decreases even when i start speeding way up, any reason why i'm not getting the same power?

[[old] jamesg]

The power we see on our monitors is the product of handle force x net stroke length x rating. So if you increase the rating, but decrease the length and/or force by the same amount, you'll see no change in power or pace. If on the other hand as well as increasing the rating, you also increase force and length, you'll see a very large change in power and hence pace, but you may be obliged to stop quite soon.<br /><br />As a way to learn to row and train, and if you're a beginner, I think it's best to start by pulling long strokes and plenty of them, slow and with a comfortable ratio, low drag, and not too hard. Long means from chain guard (but always from a strong position, back straight, shins vertical) to belly button. Slow means max 20-23 according to your height, not too hard means you'll see some blisters, but not blood. Plenty can mean even 1500 strokes, but 600 a time will do to start with. This is what you'd have to do afloat in a crew, at the very least.<br /><br />As rowing with good style involves lots of muscle, you don't need to rate high to overload your CV system and hence train it. <br /><br />Then as you get fitter and acquire harder fingers and tendons, you needn't change either rating or style, just pull a bit harder. <br /><br />Numbers that can help you control your doings are HRR% and W/kg. 70% HRR and 2 W/kg (lean weight) are fine for most endurance training. Stick to the lower for safety.

[[old] John Rupp]

What is the rating where you get your fastest speed for the distance?<br /><br />Your rating depends on the speed and distance you are doing.<br /><br />Perhaps your rating is high enough already.<br /><br />If it isn't, once you determine your current optimal rating, you can gradually take it up higher, making sure that your power is likewise increasing.

[[old] NJhsRower]

20 is where i'm most comfortible and the almost lowest split, any higher i just get tired faster without much decrease in split

[[old] PaulS]

<a href="http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/Test01 ... ession.jpg" target="_blank">Force profiles for progressive paces as ratio is maintained.</a> <br /><br />If you are getting faster paces when you increase the stroke rate, your input per drive is actually dropping, this is not a good thing. Even if you kept the input constant and increased the rate the pace should drop.<br /><br />The best case is to maintain ratio, and as the rate increases so does the input, which leads to a faster pace. This is illustrated in the link above.<br /><br />There will become a point at which input can not be increased and then the only way remaining to get a faster pace (on the Erg) is to increase Stroke rate ("Trading rate for pace").<br /><br />The purpose of training should be to practice good technique, then increase the input per drive while maintaining a workable ratio.<br /><br />It may not be as fun as extra low rate or high rate training, but in the end it is about the only thing that matters.<br />i.e. How much input can you produce per stroke at the rate your coach wants to use in racing.<br /><br />Your current challenge seems to be getting the mechanics correct to bring the rate up, this may mean that you meed to row at slower paces and learn the movements better so that you can perform them more quickly as the pace increases.<br /><br /><br />What is the pace you can hold for 30 minutes at SR=20? Or give an idea of what workout you do, if not 30 minutes.

[[old] NJhsRower]

<!--quoteo(post=56526:date=Feb 20 2006, 04:57 PM:name=PaulS)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 20 2006, 04:57 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><a href="http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/Test01 ... ession.jpg" target="_blank">Force profiles for progressive paces as ratio is maintained.</a> <br /><br />If you are getting faster paces when you increase the stroke rate, your input per drive is actually dropping, this is not a good thing. Even if you kept the input constant and increased the rate the pace should drop.<br /><br />The best case is to maintain ratio, and as the rate increases so does the input, which leads to a faster pace. This is illustrated in the link above.<br /><br />There will become a point at which input can not be increased and then the only way remaining to get a faster pace (on the Erg) is to increase Stroke rate ("Trading rate for pace").<br /><br />The purpose of training should be to practice good technique, then increase the input per drive while maintaining a workable ratio.<br /><br />It may not be as fun as extra low rate or high rate training, but in the end it is about the only thing that matters.<br />i.e. How much input can you produce per stroke at the rate your coach wants to use in racing.<br /><br />Your current challenge seems to be getting the mechanics correct to bring the rate up, this may mean that you meed to row at slower paces and learn the movements better so that you can perform them more quickly as the pace increases.<br /><br /><br />What is the pace you can hold for 30 minutes at SR=20? Or give an idea of what workout you do, if not 30 minutes.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />1:50 is what i usually keep at 20 spm for 30 min<br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--quoteo(post=56530:date=Feb 20 2006, 02:03 PM:name=NJhsRower)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NJhsRower @ Feb 20 2006, 02:03 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>1:50 is what i usually keep at 20 spm for 30 min<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />That would be a pretty strong stroke. Care to give an idea of what your other paces are? 500m, 2k, 5k, 6k?<br /><br />Height and weight would be useful bits also. Age and Gender really doesn't matter, though it might shed some light on what the future may hold.

[[old] NJhsRower]

when i said 1:50 i forgot to mention that it flunctuates up and down and an more honest answer would have been an average of 1:55 probally <br /><br />and i am 6'0, 155 lb, 15 y/o, my 2k from last year when i was 30 lb's lighter was 7:47 (i know thats weak)<br /><br />and i haven't really had any erg tests besides from that<br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--quoteo(post=56539:date=Feb 20 2006, 02:55 PM:name=NJhsRower)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NJhsRower @ Feb 20 2006, 02:55 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>when i said 1:50 i forgot to mention that it flunctuates up and down and an more honest answer would have been an average of 1:55 probally <br /><br />and i am 6'0, 155 lb, 15 y/o, my 2k from last year when i was 30 lb's lighter was 7:47 (i know thats weak)<br /><br />and i haven't really had any erg tests besides from that<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />30lbs in a year is quite a bit to gain, is that due to and increase in muscle mass (have you been weight training?) or something else (table training?).<br /><br />I wouldn't call a 7:47 as a 125lb 14 year old "weak", and it sounds as if you can hold that pace for 4 times as long now (1:55 for 30 minutes is almost 4 7:40 2k's back to back), and doing that at a SR=20 is still quite strong.<br /><br />Once you are good and warmed up, give a 1k race trial a go, not "all-out" but more like what you would be expecting to do a 2k at, this won't be terribly painful since you won't have to do the 2nd half of the usual 2k time trial, but try to get the rate at least into the high 20's if not low 30's and see what happens. Report back with the result time and stroke rate and we'll take a look at how that went.

[[old] NJhsRower]

<!--quoteo(post=56542:date=Feb 20 2006, 06:05 PM:name=PaulS)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 20 2006, 06:05 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />30lbs in a year is quite a bit to gain, is that due to and increase in muscle mass (have you been weight training?) or something else (table training?).<br /><br />I wouldn't call a 7:47 as a 125lb 14 year old "weak", and it sounds as if you can hold that pace for 4 times as long now (1:55 for 30 minutes is almost 4 7:40 2k's back to back), and doing that at a SR=20 is still quite strong.<br /><br />Once you are good and warmed up, give a 1k race trial a go, not "all-out" but more like what you would be expecting to do a 2k at, this won't be terribly painful since you won't have to do the 2nd half of the usual 2k time trial, but try to get the rate at least into the high 20's if not low 30's and see what happens. Report back with the result time and stroke rate and we'll take a look at how that went.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />i've always eaten a lot and i guess puberty made me gain the weight (i always amm active so the weight just ended up being muscle)<br /><br />whenever i try the 1k i'll report back here<br />

[[old] rwg4]

<!--quoteo(post=56427:date=Feb 20 2006, 01:12 AM:name=jamesg)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Feb 20 2006, 01:12 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The power we see on our monitors is the product of handle force x net stroke length x rating. So if you increase the rating, but decrease the length and/or force by the same amount, you'll see no change in power or pace. If on the other hand as well as increasing the rating, you also increase force and length, you'll see a very large change in power and hence pace, but you may be obliged to stop quite soon.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />All,<br /><br />I just got a Concept 2 and am trying to figure out how to increase my pace. I know I need to be going slow and learning technique first, but I am curious how people get their pace to 1:40, etc. According to the above post the pace is determined by: handle force, net stroke length, and rating. Handle force and net stroke length make sense to me. I'm not sure what rating means. Is this the resistance level? If it is the resistance level, if one bumps up the resistance and maintains the same force and stroke length, will their pace decrease? <br /><br />Also, how does the SPM figure into this? At first I assumed the higher the SPM the faster the pace but this does not seem to be the case from the materials that come with the Concept 2.<br /><br />Thanks for any help and advice. <br /><br />

[[old] jamesg]

Rating is measured in strokes per minute, spm.

[[old] John Rupp]

Rating = spm<br /><br /><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->I assumed the higher the SPM the faster the pace </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes that's the case as long as you are getting a faster pace for the effort.<br />

[[old] rwg4]

<!--quoteo(post=56591:date=Feb 21 2006, 02:56 AM:name=John Rupp)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 21 2006, 02:56 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Rating = spm<br /><br /><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->I assumed the higher the SPM the faster the pace </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes that's the case as long as you are getting a faster pace for the effort.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Thanks for the answer. It makes sense that the faster the SPM the faster the pace, everything else being equal. So, does the resistance level determine the pace at all? For example, if I were able to increase the resistance level one notch, and keep everything else equal, will my 500m pace speed up because theoretically I am having to pull harder at the higher resistance level?<br /><br />Thanks for any help.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--quoteo(post=56618:date=Feb 21 2006, 05:37 AM:name=rwg4)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rwg4 @ Feb 21 2006, 05:37 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quoteo(post=56591:date=Feb 21 2006, 02:56 AM:name=John Rupp)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 21 2006, 02:56 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Rating = spm<br /><br /><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->I assumed the higher the SPM the faster the pace </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes that's the case as long as you are getting a faster pace for the effort.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Thanks for the answer. It makes sense that the faster the SPM the faster the pace, everything else being equal. So, does the resistance level determine the pace at all? For example, if I were able to increase the resistance level one notch, and keep everything else equal, will my 500m pace speed up because theoretically I am having to pull harder at the higher resistance level?<br /><br />Thanks for any help.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The higher and lower damper settings are mostly an adjustment for "feel", the actual number that would describe those settings is called the Drag Factor. Although it may feel as if there is greater resistance, what is really happening is "slower resistance". A given pace on the display requires a given average energy input for a stroke.<br /><br />By changing the resistance, and maintaining the same Pace, stroke rate (SR) and length, the variable you are manipulating is the Ratio of the Drive to Recovery. If you keep the ratio the same, either the Pace, SR, or Length would have to change accordingly. It may sound complicated, but it's really not that bad if you think about it for a while. Or just ignore it completely, except you should probably use the Lower half of the Damper settings and DF range. I suggest staying in the 110-115 (2-3) range as a good starting point.<br />