Maximum Heart Rate -- (an)aerobic?

[old] BobD · Post by **[old] BobD** » February 17th, 2006, 10:03 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Sean Seamus @ Feb 17 2006, 07:01 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>can anyone tell me why a young rower (age 15) would get a heart rate monitor? i just dont see the use....... <br /><br /><br />Several reasons suggest themselves<br /><br />For one, if the individual is coaching him/herself, to have feedback on intensity level. Note that an HR monitor is ONE source of feedback, it not The Definitive Guide, just as a speedometer in a car is not the last word in appropriate speed. And, even New Powerful Zoommaster cars come with speedometers.<br /><br />To a degree, some of this thread seems to take the point of view that an HR monitor is a killjoy, limiting upper levels of effort. Training needs to address the whole spectrum of intensities. Constantly going "hard" brings problems later on, some of them very serious, and with beginners - which all young people are - leads to a distorted sense of Perceived Exertion.<br /><br />I'd appreciate some info on the dangers of excessive high level HR. I know a few, but only anecdotally from chatting with medical people, and can't yet write a coherent overall description. All of the layman level stuff I've read skirts this area.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />For one thing it prevents building of endurance, simply because you can't maintain the intensity and naturally enough you will have no reserves. That's why starting a race at too high a HR will let you find out about "The Wall". It's called "Pacing Yourself", and a HR monitor is about the most accurate way of doing this. Try running a 10 K at your max HR and see how soon you are walking and not running

<br /><br /><br />There has been a lot of research into training at less than max HR. If you really check most of the top level endurance atheletes, they all train with HR monitors as it's fairly inconvenient to measure lactate while exercising in the open or on the water for instance. The HR correlates very well with the lactate results by the way.<br /><br />For older atheletes you can push yourself much harder than is wise, and can literally kill yourself.

[old] Ben Rea · Post by **[old] Ben Rea** » February 17th, 2006, 12:44 pm

thanks for the info guys, i will look into buying one......

[old] gcanyon · Post by **[old] gcanyon** » February 17th, 2006, 3:30 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Feb 16 2006, 04:40 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>At 42, your doctor probably will tell you your max HR should be 178, and not likely he'll take you higher during a treadmill stress test. You can probably stay at 178 for an hour or more.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Interesting to note. I did an hour two days ago (new PB, woo!) and spent the last twenty minutes or so at 180-185. Overheating is definitely an issue. I'm going to have to do another hour out on the balcony some cool morning to see if I can improve.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Feb 16 2006, 04:40 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Sounds to me you are creeping past your arobic limits into partial anaerobic territory. You can maintain it, but the HR goes up faster and faster, and when done, you are really out of breath. In my recent reading on O2 debt and recovery, you'll be less out of breath and recover faster if you can keep rowing at whatever light pace you can manage afterwards. Stopping entirely is not as bad as putting a bag over your head to cut off air, but continuing to move (60% effort the recommended ideal) is a lot better for O2 recovery.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I haven't been big on the recovery thing, but I'll definitely try it. I've also been doing half hours where I ride my heart rate at 150-155. I think that's a good cardio rate for me -- doesn't feel too hard, but the BPM is right.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Feb 16 2006, 04:40 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> That severe chest pain I had, was without breathing hard, in fact, I was doing very little, and then was just in a lot of pain, had trouble breathing, and was in a cold sweat for 5-30 minutes. Out of control pain for no apparent reason. <br /><br /> You might consider keeping your max HR lower, even if you can drive it up higher. A bit more of the long rows, at HRs more around 160 or 170. I intend to do long rows at moderate HR rates as I recover. I'll start around HR of 120. Slow and boring, but necessary, and cautious.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'll try this as well. I'm not sure how technical I want to get about it, but I haven't reached my exercise geek limit yet.<br /><br />Good luck with your recovery!<br /><br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(BobD @ Feb 17 2006, 06:03 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>For one thing it prevents building of endurance, simply because you can't maintain the intensity and naturally enough you will have no reserves. That's why starting a race at too high a HR will let you find out about "The Wall". It's called "Pacing Yourself", and a HR monitor is about the most accurate way of doing this. Try running a 10 K at your max HR and see how soon you are walking and not running

<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />See, this is why I brought this up in the first place. I did an hour the other day, and had my heart rate up near maximum from nearly the start. I'd have to go check the monitor to be certain, but I'm confident I was over 170 from five minutes in to the end. It doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect -- no burning muscles or other signs of lactate buildup. I don't wear out at the end, other than to get progressively more tired, which I would expect since I'm rowing hard!

<br /><br />I just don't get anaerobic, seemingly.

[old] BobD · Post by **[old] BobD** » February 17th, 2006, 5:01 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gcanyon @ Feb 17 2006, 02:30 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Feb 16 2006, 04:40 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>At 42, your doctor probably will tell you your max HR should be 178, and not likely he'll take you higher during a treadmill stress test. You can probably stay at 178 for an hour or more.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Interesting to note. I did an hour two days ago (new PB, woo!) and spent the last twenty minutes or so at 180-185. Overheating is definitely an issue. I'm going to have to do another hour out on the balcony some cool morning to see if I can improve.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Feb 16 2006, 04:40 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Sounds to me you are creeping past your arobic limits into partial anaerobic territory. You can maintain it, but the HR goes up faster and faster, and when done, you are really out of breath. In my recent reading on O2 debt and recovery, you'll be less out of breath and recover faster if you can keep rowing at whatever light pace you can manage afterwards. Stopping entirely is not as bad as putting a bag over your head to cut off air, but continuing to move (60% effort the recommended ideal) is a lot better for O2 recovery.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I haven't been big on the recovery thing, but I'll definitely try it. I've also been doing half hours where I ride my heart rate at 150-155. I think that's a good cardio rate for me -- doesn't feel too hard, but the BPM is right.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Feb 16 2006, 04:40 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> That severe chest pain I had, was without breathing hard, in fact, I was doing very little, and then was just in a lot of pain, had trouble breathing, and was in a cold sweat for 5-30 minutes. Out of control pain for no apparent reason. <br /><br /> You might consider keeping your max HR lower, even if you can drive it up higher. A bit more of the long rows, at HRs more around 160 or 170. I intend to do long rows at moderate HR rates as I recover. I'll start around HR of 120. Slow and boring, but necessary, and cautious.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'll try this as well. I'm not sure how technical I want to get about it, but I haven't reached my exercise geek limit yet.<br /><br />Good luck with your recovery!<br /><br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(BobD @ Feb 17 2006, 06:03 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>For one thing it prevents building of endurance, simply because you can't maintain the intensity and naturally enough you will have no reserves. That's why starting a race at too high a HR will let you find out about "The Wall". It's called "Pacing Yourself", and a HR monitor is about the most accurate way of doing this. Try running a 10 K at your max HR and see how soon you are walking and not running

<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />See, this is why I brought this up in the first place. I did an hour the other day, and had my heart rate up near maximum from nearly the start. I'd have to go check the monitor to be certain, but I'm confident I was over 170 from five minutes in to the end. It doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect -- no burning muscles or other signs of lactate buildup. I don't wear out at the end, other than to get progressively more tired, which I would expect since I'm rowing hard!

<br /><br />I just don't get anaerobic, seemingly.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Do me a favor and try the HR calculator here: <a href="http://stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml" target="_blank">http://stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml</a><br /><br />As I said before my max HF calculated is 172 at age 66, based on a resting HR of 55. So at 141 I'm at about 85% of max. If your max is for instance 228 (Don't know your age) then you are training in the areobic range and are NOT working hard enough

Also if you are in good shape your HR rate should drop about 30 BPM in the <b>first minute </b> during cooldown. If it stays high then you have a training problem...<br /><br /><br />[quote name='BobD' date='Feb 17 2006, 03:59 PM' post='56208']<br />[quote name='gcanyon' post='56193' date='Feb 17 2006, 02:30 PM']<br />[quote name='ljwagner' post='56091' date='Feb 16 2006, 04:40 PM']<br />At 42, your doctor probably will tell you your max HR should be 178, and not likely he'll take you higher during a treadmill stress test. You can probably stay at 178 for an hour or more.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Interesting to note. I did an hour two days ago (new PB, woo!) and spent the last twenty minutes or so at 180-185. Overheating is definitely an issue. I'm going to have to do another hour out on the balcony some cool morning to see if I can improve.<br /><br />[quote name='ljwagner' post='56091' date='Feb 16 2006, 04:40 PM']<br /> Sounds to me you are creeping past your arobic limits into partial anaerobic territory. You can maintain it, but the HR goes up faster and faster, and when done, you are really out of breath. In my recent reading on O2 debt and recovery, you'll be less out of breath and recover faster if you can keep rowing at whatever light pace you can manage afterwards. Stopping entirely is not as bad as putting a bag over your head to cut off air, but continuing to move (60% effort the recommended ideal) is a lot better for O2 recovery.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I haven't been big on the recovery thing, but I'll definitely try it. I've also been doing half hours where I ride my heart rate at 150-155. I think that's a good cardio rate for me -- doesn't feel too hard, but the BPM is right.<br /><br />[quote name='ljwagner' post='56091' date='Feb 16 2006, 04:40 PM']<br /> That severe chest pain I had, was without breathing hard, in fact, I was doing very little, and then was just in a lot of pain, had trouble breathing, and was in a cold sweat for 5-30 minutes. Out of control pain for no apparent reason. <br /><br /> You might consider keeping your max HR lower, even if you can drive it up higher. A bit more of the long rows, at HRs more around 160 or 170. I intend to do long rows at moderate HR rates as I recover. I'll start around HR of 120. Slow and boring, but necessary, and cautious.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I'll try this as well. I'm not sure how technical I want to get about it, but I haven't reached my exercise geek limit yet.<br /><br />Good luck with your recovery!<br /><br /><br />[quote name='BobD' post='56144' date='Feb 17 2006, 06:03 AM']<br />For one thing it prevents building of endurance, simply because you can't maintain the intensity and naturally enough you will have no reserves. That's why starting a race at too high a HR will let you find out about "The Wall". It's called "Pacing Yourself", and a HR monitor is about the most accurate way of doing this. Try running a 10 K at your max HR and see how soon you are walking and not running

<br />[/quote]<br /><br />See, this is why I brought this up in the first place. I did an hour the other day, and had my heart rate up near maximum from nearly the start. I'd have to go check the monitor to be certain, but I'm confident I was over 170 from five minutes in to the end. It doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect -- no burning muscles or other signs of lactate buildup. I don't wear out at the end, other than to get progressively more tired, which I would expect since I'm rowing hard!

<br /><br />I just don't get anaerobic, seemingly.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Do me a favor and try the HR calculator here: <a href="http://stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml" target="_blank">http://stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml</a><br /><br />As I said before my max HF calculated is 172 at age 66, based on a resting HR of 55. So at 141 I'm at about 85% of max. If your max is for instance 228 (Don't know your age) then you are training in the areobic range and are working hard enough, but not hard enough to reach your max as in an ALLOUT Sprint

Also if you are in good shape your HR rate should drop about 30 BPM in the <b>first minute </b> during cooldown. If it stays high then you have a training deficit problem...or a cardiac problem.<br />

[old] gcanyon · Post by **[old] gcanyon** » February 18th, 2006, 6:34 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(BobD @ Feb 17 2006, 01:01 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Do me a favor and try the HR calculator here: <a href="http://stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml" target="_blank">http://stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml</a><br /><br />As I said before my max HF calculated is 172 at age 66, based on a resting HR of 55. So at 141 I'm at about 85% of max. If your max is for instance 228 (Don't know your age) then you are training in the areobic range and are NOT working hard enough

Also if you are in good shape your HR rate should drop about 30 BPM in the <b>first minute </b> during cooldown. If it stays high then you have a training problem...<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I tried it out, here were the results:<br /><br /> % of Maximum Heart Rate Reserve*<br />Percent 60 sec. 10 sec. 60 sec. 10 sec.<br />------- ------- ------- ------- -------<br /> 100 184.0 30.7 184.0 30.7<br /> 95 174.8 29.1 177.8 29.6<br /> 90 165.6 27.6 171.6 28.6<br /> 85 156.4 26.1 165.4 27.6<br /> 80 147.2 24.5 159.2 26.5<br /> 75 138.0 23.0 153.0 25.5<br /> 70 128.8 21.5 146.8 24.5<br /> 65 119.6 19.9 140.6 23.4<br /> 60 110.4 18.4 134.4 22.4<br /> 55 101.2 16.9 128.2 21.4<br /><br />* Percent of maximum, corrected for resting heart rate of 60<br /><br />I don't understand what that's supposed to mean. I get that the second column is a straight percent of the maximum, and the fourth column is a percent of the difference between resting and maximum, but what are the third and fifth columns supposed to be? And what do the 60 sec and 10 sec headings mean?<br /><br />By the way, this was calculated using the "fit" formula, which I'm not sure is correct. I suppose I'm fit, but it's not like I did any significant cardio work before getting my C2 back in December. I've always retained a reasonable level of fitness even when I don't work at it though.<br /><br />In addition, 184 likely isn't my real max. As I said in my original post, I've seen my heart rate go as high as 190 while rowing. If I entered that by hand the above chart would be a bit different, obviously.<br /><br />Finally, on the subject of recovery. I just did 21,000 meters while watching a movie. I did 2K at a time, taking a 1-2 minute break in between. I did the 2K at a heart rate of 150-160 throughout, maintaining about a 2:05-2:10 pace. I timed one minute after each 2K and checked my heart rate after 1 minute of rest. Each time it dropped from a start of up to 160 to under 100. So I think I'm doing okay on the cooldown front.

<br /><br />That's one thing I really love about rowing. I can repeatedly push my heart rate up by 60bpm in less than a minute, and then watch it drop 60bpm in a minute. I'm happy with that.

[old] Citroen · Post by **[old] Citroen** » February 18th, 2006, 9:41 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gcanyon @ Feb 18 2006, 10:34 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />I don't understand what that's supposed to mean. I get that the second column is a straight percent of the maximum, and the fourth column is a percent of the difference between resting and maximum, but what are the third and fifth columns supposed to be? And what do the 60 sec and 10 sec headings mean?<br /><br />By the way, this was calculated using the "fit" formula, which I'm not sure is correct. I suppose I'm fit, but it's not like I did any significant cardio work before getting my C2 back in December. I've always retained a reasonable level of fitness even when I don't work at it though.<br /><br />In addition, 184 likely isn't my real max. As I said in my original post, I've seen my heart rate go as high as 190 while rowing. If I entered that by hand the above chart would be a bit different, obviously.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I guessed that the 10secs column was for folks who are counting by taking a wrist pulse. Count for ten seconds and multiply by six is easier than counting for a minute (although I'd use a 15 second count and multiply by 4). The website seems to be devoid of the background behind their results.<br /><br />I'm 42. The fit formula gives me 184; the highest I've seen on the erg is 186 so it's reasonably correct.

[old] gcanyon · Post by **[old] gcanyon** » February 18th, 2006, 12:29 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Feb 18 2006, 05:41 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I guessed that the 10secs column was for folks who are counting by taking a wrist pulse. Count for ten seconds and multiply by six is easier than counting for a minute (although I'd use a 15 second count and multiply by 4). The website seems to be devoid of the background behind their results.<br /><br />I'm 42. The fit formula gives me 184; the highest I've seen on the erg is 186 so it's reasonably correct.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'm smacking my forehead: 'Doh!<br /><br />You are obviously correct about the 10secs column -- I can't believe I missed that. All the rowing must be depriving my brain of oxygen.