S10ps?

[old] aledieps · Post by **[old] aledieps** » February 6th, 2006, 9:40 pm

Can someone explain what benefit Strapless 10 meters per stroke rowing is to the rower? I personally find strapless rowing very hard, doesn't really make sense to me.

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » February 6th, 2006, 11:05 pm

Ok, since I am a adherent, I will take a stab at this. PaulS is the coach, and this is his theory. There have been many discussions in the past in case you want to search for more.<br /><br />Strapless: this was counterintuitive to me, and took some time to understand and get used to. I would fall off the back of the seat when pulling strapless hard. If you don't use the straps, you don't get to use the straps to slow your momentum at the end of the stroke and don't get to use them to pull you back up the slide. Both of these effects are a good thing for training, and teach and reinforce good habits.<br /><br />The C2 measures how fast you spin the flywheel, by pulling the handle. You pull the handle as hard as you can with your legs, back and arms. At the end of the stroke, if you use the straps to slow and stop yourself, some of the energy you produce during your stroke is "lost" and put into the straps instead. If you don't use the straps, all of your energy is transferred to the handle. Without the straps, you use the handle to slow and stop yourself. You also have to balance at the finish (or at least I do, PaulS says he can get any amount of layback). Putting all of your energy into the handle is more efficient.<br /><br />In terms of recovery, rowing strapless teaches and trains you to recover the stroke properly. Instead of dragging yourself back up the slide with your feet in the straps, you have to use your balance to do so. I find that really helped get my hands out and my back forward before I started with the legs, and get into the catch position before I got to the catch. Just in the past few months I have I realized how important it is to row strapless at a higher SRs too, since that really challenges and trains the discipline of the recovery.<br /><br />Rowing 10 meters per stroke. I struggle to understand if this is just a mathematical coincidence, but 10mps seems like a really nice pattern of SR and Pace for the paces between 1:40 or so and 2:20. Rowing 10mps keeps you in "ratio" so that in order to go faster you pull harder, and only increase your SR when you are actually going faster. I don't row on the water, and so can't really understand or even need to care about the subleties of 10mps, but it is a nice discipline for my rowing. It does mean that I don't do really slow rate rowing, like 18-20, but I find when I do that I have a hard time not making the stroke artificially slow. 10mps always feels natural in those broad ranges.<br /><br />Strapless 10mps is for training. You can race at any pace and rate you want, and with the straps. I do row long pieces like 10k to the marathon distance either straps loose or not at all though.

[old] dennish · Post by **[old] dennish** » February 6th, 2006, 11:37 pm

For me, working with Paul and the 10mps has been a total change in my water rowing. Slowed down my recovery, upped my power application and gave me time on each stroke to think through what I needed to be doing at every conceivable moment. Not that I can execute, but now I have a better chance that where I was before, just thrashing and rushing and doing about everything possible wrong. dennis

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » February 6th, 2006, 11:44 pm

This has been discussed many times, but to save you searching for threads. Strapless rowing can be helpful if you are an on water rower. If all you are going to do is erg then it's not necessary and can make slower. What works for going fast on an erg quite often will not work in a boat, but if you're not going to be in a boat it doesn't make any difference.

[old] tomkirk · Post by **[old] tomkirk** » February 7th, 2006, 12:28 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Feb 6 2006, 10:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Strapless rowing can be helpful if you are an on water rower. . . . but if you're not going to be in a boat it doesn't make any difference. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'll have to disagree here. Part of the rythm of on water rowing is in the "swing". Thrashing is very easy to detect on water and is evidenced in the boat set.<br /><br />Achieving the same rythm on the erg can be masked by the straps. Unfortunately, there is still a lot of pounding and thrashing going on. Removing the straps allows the rower to focus on the swing and enjoy the rythm.<br /><br />tk

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » February 7th, 2006, 12:39 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tomkirk @ Feb 6 2006, 08:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>[I'll have to disagree here. Part of the rythm of on water rowing is in the "swing". Thrashing is very easy to detect on water and is evidenced in the boat set.<br /><br />Achieving the same rythm on the erg can be masked by the straps. Unfortunately, there is still a lot of pounding and thrashing going on. Removing the straps allows the rower to focus on the swing and enjoy the rythm.<br /><br />tk <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Focus on the swing and enjoy the rhythm if you want, but you'll almost always be slower. The hardest thing to do is to get on water rowers to understand that erging technique does not have to match on water technique. On the erg anything that makes you faster is OK even if it's pounding, thrashing, knees in/out, arms bent, uneven pull, lack of smoothness, straps, big lay back, handle hitting the chin, etc.

[old] aledieps · Post by **[old] aledieps** » February 7th, 2006, 12:40 am

Yes, I am an on-water rower and hopefully "S10PS" will be of some use to me. Saving energy on the erg, though, i guess would be the main reason I would liek to give this another shot. The first couple times i rowed strapless, or attempted to row rather, i just shot out of the feet at the finish. Is there any secret to doing this? I remember someone saying that you really have to squeeze down with muscles in your abdominals/sides

[old] Sir Pirate · Post by **[old] Sir Pirate** » February 7th, 2006, 3:24 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Feb 7 2006, 03:44 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Strapless rowing can be helpful if you are an on water rower. If all you are going to do is erg then it's not necessary and can make slower. What works for going fast on an erg quite often will not work in a boat, but if you're not going to be in a boat it doesn't make any difference. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I agree with Gus.<br /><br />Sir Pirate

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » February 7th, 2006, 4:20 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Sir Pirate @ Feb 6 2006, 11:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I agree with Gus.<br /><br />Sir Pirate <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Then it's settled!

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » February 7th, 2006, 8:17 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(aledieps @ Feb 7 2006, 05:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Yes, I am an on-water rower and hopefully "S10PS" will be of some use to me. Saving energy on the erg, though, i guess would be the main reason I would liek to give this another shot. The first couple times i rowed strapless, or attempted to row rather, i just shot out of the feet at the finish. Is there any secret to doing this? I remember someone saying that you really have to squeeze down with muscles in your abdominals/sides <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />To stop you from shooting from the footsteps you must pull quit hard with your hands at the end of the stroke. Do this and you stop yourself. A lot of ergers don,t do this en that's the reason they can,t row strapless in a reasenable pace. Just pull hard enough at the end.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » February 7th, 2006, 10:40 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Feb 6 2006, 08:39 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Focus on the swing and enjoy the rhythm if you want, but you'll almost always be slower. The hardest thing to do is to get on water rowers to understand that erging technique does not have to match on water technique. On the erg anything that makes you faster is OK even if it's pounding, thrashing, knees in/out, arms bent, uneven pull, lack of smoothness, straps, big lay back, handle hitting the chin, etc. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The hardest thing to get someone with this view to understand is that "pounding, thrashing, knees in/out, arms bent, uneven pull, lack of smoothness, straps, big lay back, handle hitting the chin, etc." can be accomplshed pretty darn easily by anyone that practices good OTW technique on the Erg, but not the other way around.<br /><br />I suppose if you practice "pounding, thrashing, knees in/out, arms bent, uneven pull, lack of smoothness, straps, big lay back, handle hitting the chin, etc.", you would probably be better at it than the person that was just borrowing it in an effort to increase their erg score for the day, but at the same time the "pounding, thrashing, knees in/out, arms bent, uneven pull, lack of smoothness, straps, big lay back, handle hitting the chin, etc." will also be the ingrained habit.<br /><br />You better be one h*** of an outfielder if you are going to use a paisley mitt. <br /><br />That said, Matthias Siejkowski isn't exactly the epitome of OTW technique, he's closer to that than "pounding, thrashing, knees in/out, arms bent, uneven pull, lack of smoothness, straps, big lay back, handle hitting the chin, etc.", and it didn't seem to make him any slower. <br /><br />And finally, if you get Rupp to come along with yourself and Sir Pirate, then I will consider the matter "settled".

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » February 7th, 2006, 11:53 am

Coach Gus: are you a rowing coach? What do you coach? I thought from posts in the past that you were not. Maybe I got that wrong.<br /><br />I don't think we can ever know the "best" way to be fast on the erg. I doubt there is a universal truth here. A world class rower with unorthodox technique maybe faster if they improved their technique, or not. One with perfect technique may be faster if they loosened up. The proof would be in individual race results spread out over years. It is hard to experiment on real people, and they change over time, so it is hard to draw conclusions even about their own training, and then impossible to extrapolate that to those of us in the slow masses. Ranger's so-called progress over the past 2 years illustrates how difficult this can be to know (and how desperately he may need professional coaching).<br /><br />If your feet are shooting out of the blocks at the end of the stroke (mine certainly did too), then I would think that is sign that something is off about the timing of the stroke. The "secret", to the extent I understand it, is that you have to balance more at the finish with your hips and with your hands as they draw into the body.

[old] becz · Post by **[old] becz** » February 7th, 2006, 12:18 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 7 2006, 09:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>You better be one h*** of an outfielder if you are going to use a paisley mitt <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><a href='http://*** DELETE - SPAM ***-housewares.bestpricefan. ... UX7K_i.htm' target='_blank'>paisley mitt?</a>

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » February 7th, 2006, 9:00 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(aledieps @ Feb 6 2006, 08:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Yes, I am an on-water rower and hopefully "S10PS" will be of some use to me. Saving energy on the erg, though, i guess would be the main reason I would liek to give this another shot. The first couple times i rowed strapless, or attempted to row rather, i just shot out of the feet at the finish. Is there any secret to doing this? I remember someone saying that you really have to squeeze down with muscles in your abdominals/sides <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Since you are an on water rower then erging strapless can be of some benefit to your technique development. You should always erg striving for a perfect on water stroke. Ask your coach what he/she thinks you should do regarding strapless erging.<br />

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » February 7th, 2006, 9:19 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michaelb @ Feb 7 2006, 07:53 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Coach Gus: are you a rowing coach? What do you coach? I thought from posts in the past that you were not. Maybe I got that wrong.<br /><br />I don't think we can ever know the "best" way to be fast on the erg. I doubt there is a universal truth here. A world class rower with unorthodox technique maybe faster if they improved their technique, or not. One with perfect technique may be faster if they loosened up. The proof would be in individual race results spread out over years. It is hard to experiment on real people, and they change over time, so it is hard to draw conclusions even about their own training, and then impossible to extrapolate that to those of us in the slow masses. Ranger's so-called progress over the past 2 years illustrates how difficult this can be to know (and how desperately he may need professional coaching).<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have coached both on water rowers and those who only erg. I am no longer actively coaching any one other than casual help to those who ask.<br /><br />My point was that there is no one best way to erg. Different people have different strengths and should use them. Whatever odd technique allows you to use your strengths to go faster is acceptable on the erg. The point I was making that PaulS seems to want to ignore is that if you are only erging, then you don't care about on water technique. You don't have to easily transition to anything. All you care about is going fast on the erg.<br /><br />I think Ranger might be a good example of this opinion. His form two plus years ago was horrible on water form, but probably just about perfect erg form for him and his talents. Over the past couple of years he has taken up on water rowing and has altered his stroke on the erg to train for proper on water technique. While he hasn't actually performed to prove this, I think he is now slower on the erg because of the new stroke. His attempt to go back to his old faster erg stroke in such a short time was a mistake. I think he would greatly benefit from having a coach. I don't think his personality would work well with coaching. <br />

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