The Rhythm Of The Rowing Stroke

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 31st, 2005, 4:00 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Here's more evidence that Ranger is reading from a SEX manual rather than a rowing manual. </td></tr></table> Not and all, Roland, And that's just the problem. I have never read any detailed description, such as the one I have just given, about the rhythm of the rowing stroke. Are you saying that what I have just outlined is a standard part of rowing manuals? Where? I would love to read it. Rather, like most things rhythmic, we tend to be inarticulate about these matters, even where rhythm is _essential_ to performance and/or response, e.g., in music, poetry, and, yes, rowing. Then, being inarticulate about this, we (who know how to row) lament the bad form of beginning rowers and tell them that what they are doing (badly) has no discernable sources other than inexperience and that, if they just hang around long enough, rowing badly, they will eventually row well! I am not sure this is very useful advice. Most rowers, especially most ergers, I suspect, just continue to row badly--and can't figure out why. ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 31st, 2005, 4:23 am

BTW, if you can reach 10MPS when you race, that is, get to where you have a powerful stroke, this 1.7-to-1 ratio and 4-beat meter should be fine to groove along in. With this as a starting point, we might also be able to understand other situations, too, though, e.g., when you want even more pace and need to give up this ratio in order to trade rate for pace, e.g., in a 1K or 500m, or perhaps in a sprint start or sprint finish. The most reasonable modification of this 1.7-to-1 ratio would be a 1-to-1 ratio. And how would we get from one to the other? The most reasonable way, I think, would be to eliminate the little rests after the drive and the drive echo. Then the six pulses in the drive would be matched by a a similar six pulses in the recovery (drive echo), yielding 12 pulses rather than 16, that is, a 3-beat measure rather than a 4. /xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\ -----------------drive-----------------------------recovery--------------- /xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\ / xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\ --1----2-----3-----4-------1-------2----3-----4-----1------2---3-------4 toes-heels-back-legs--arms--hands-toes-heels-back-legs-arms-hands Needless to say, this measure is even harder to master. 4-beat meters (like "Row, row, row your boat") are universally natural. Three beat measures are less so. This 3-beat measure also preserves all of the syncopation and complexity of the more standard 4-beat measure but adds further difficulties. Three-beat measure are indeed possible, though, as a standard variant of 4-beat measures. So for extra speed, it is indeed possible to stay organized rhythmically (i.e., metrical) but not follow the standard 4-measure. I suppose this 3-beat measure might also have the advantage of foregrounding the echoic recovery and of bringing the six (2 x 3)-beats of the drive into line rhythmically with the three beats of the stroke cycle as a whole. That is, in terms of the drive action itself, this meter is like a polymetrical 6/8 time signature (the drive) running in syncopation across a 3/4 time signature (the stroke cycle). THREE-two-three four-ONE-two---three-four-Two-two-three-four---------stroke cycle meter ONE---two-three-Four-five--six---[ONE-two-three-Four-five--six]-----------drive meter heels-toes-back-legs-arms-hands-heels-toes-back-legs-arms-hands ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 31st, 2005, 6:16 am

BTW, I have mentioned several times that, rowing with my old stroke, I _never_ did a 4 x 1K workout. I have done 20 x 1K (@ 5K pace), but not 4 x 1K (@ 2K pace). I didn't think it was productive. I much preferred 8 x 500m (at 2K - 4). It is now clear why this might have been so, and it is also clear that, rowing with a standard OTW stroke, such as I have now, this practice will have to change. I will need to do 4 x 1K (@ 2K)--a lot. The reason, I think, is that, like JR, with my old stroke, I rowed in a 1-to1 ratio with bad mechanics (footwork, sequencing, timing, etc.) and a weak stroke (10 SPI rather than 13 SPI) at high drag. But this is just the sort of stroke that you have to use to row 2K - 4/5 pace (i.e., 1K pace verging on 500m pace). If you are rowing in a nice 4-beat meter and 1.5-to-1 ratio at race pace, to row 4/5 seconds faster and rate 5-10 spm higher, you have to break down this 4-beat meter and close to 2-to-1 r atio to a 3-beat measure and 1-to-1 ratio. This was an entirely natural thing for me to do with my old stroke because I _never_ rowed in a 2-to-1 measure. I always rowed in a 1-to-1 measure. Therefore, for me, 500s came very naturally. I just jacked up the rate and off I went at 2K - 4. No problem getting the rhythm at all. 1Ks were another matter, though. For me, rowing with my old stroke, hard 1Ks were almost as hard as 2Ks. I didn't like to do them at all. The problem might have been rhythmic. To get to race pace, I needed to pull pretty hard, but given my poor stroke, I had to rate high, too. Doing 4 x 1K with

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 31st, 2005, 6:21 am

(sorry) a standard OTW stroke is a more relaxing affair. You can just coast along in your standard 2-to-1 ratio, using your standard stroke. No need to rate unusually high or to lose the rhythm. Doing a lot of 1Ks then becomes important to build up endurance with just this combination: a strong stroke riding in a 2-to-1 ratio. I now row race pace (1:36) at right about 30 spm, held firmly in place by a 4-beat measure and its major product: a 1.7-to-1 ratio. I used to race at 36-40 spm, a 1-to-1 ratio, and a 3-beat measure. ranger

[old] Kirky · Post by **[old] Kirky** » December 31st, 2005, 6:24 am

Ranger I find the basic idea of rhythm of the stroke quite interesting. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if a lot of people reading this topic may have found your use of language a little difficult to get to grips with. Is there any chance you will cut the amount of technical (poetics??) language that seems more suited to your professional environment? This would certainly mean you were communicating better (to me at least ... and I _do_ try). Regards Kirky

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 31st, 2005, 6:34 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Kirky @ Dec 31 2005, 05:24 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Ranger I find the basic idea of rhythm of the stroke quite interesting. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if a lot of people reading this topic may have found your use of language a little difficult to get to grips with. Is there any chance you will cut the amount of technical (poetics??) language that seems more suited to your professional environment? This would certainly mean you were communicating better (to me at least ... and I _do_ try). Regards Kirky </td></tr></table> I wish I could, Kirky, both for here and for my professional work. Rhythm is just pretty complicated, and, worse, unconscious. This difficulty is the same difficulty that is presented by music theory more generally. Have you ever taken a glance at a theory of tonal music? Amazing stuff, but just like rhythmic description, enormously complicated and inaccessible to common intuition. Music goes very fast and draws on a temporal rather than spatial logic. Unfortunately, language, what it refers to normally, and what we are generally conscious of tends to be spatial. Thus, all of the diagrams and odd, technical language that is needed for any sort of substantial rhythmic analysis. You just can't use every day speech and get very far. The same is true for expressing with some precision things like how we feel or who we are. For this, we need things like poetry, music, and architecture. Ordinary, every day language is inadequate. Rhythm wells up from our inner life. It is expressive rather than representational. So it goes. PaulS gives you the usual alternative: "Row, row, row your boat." ranger

[old] Porkchop · Post by **[old] Porkchop** » December 31st, 2005, 10:11 am

Ranger, Thank you. Being from a non-literary background, the rhythms of poetry have always been a bit of a mystery to me. I comprehended blank verse in high school and intuitively grasped the beat of the Man from Nantucket in all his glory, but iambs and troches remain a mystery to me. I have a new project: understanding the rhythm of rowing, and now I can tell my wife (who looks askance at me and my daughters as we row) that it's not just exercise, it's poetry in motion.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 31st, 2005, 10:40 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 31 2005, 02:34 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The same is true for expressing with some precision things like how we feel or who we are. For this, we need things like poetry, music, and architecture. Ordinary, every day language is inadequate. ranger </td></tr></table> I'm not so sure about this, we all are likely to know who Spock is, and he put it quite precisely. "Tell mother, I feel fine." There is also the longer version. (To the tune of Row, row, row your boat) Row, row, row your Erg, Building up the steam. Knees sternum el-bows, Elbows.. sternum... knees.... Drag set to 115, Treat your back nicely. Knees sternum el-bows, Elbows.. sternum... knees.... Ten meters every stroke, Pace as you please. Knees sternum el-bows, Elbows.. sternum... knees.... Row, row, row your boat; Quickly up the stream. Knees sternum el-bows, Elbows.. sternum... knees.... Heels on the stretchers, Fingers hold with ease. Knees sternum el-bows, Elbows.. sternum... knees.... Relax the shoulders at the catch, Hang from the handle to the feet. Knees sternum el-bows, Elbows.. sternum... knees.... Drive quickly off the heels, Recover smoothly on release. Knees sternum el-bows, Elbows.. sternum... knees.... And then we have this treat. Ranger The Zatopek Erger... (The Tune - Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer) You know Canoeist, Roadrunner, MikeB and GedMusto... Riverrat, Cran, and all others Robusto. But do you recall, The most Nuttiest Erger of all? Ranger The Zatopek Erger Made some very lengthy posts And if you ever read them You would think he's blowing smoke All of the other Ergers Used to laugh and call him names They wouldn't let poor Ranger Join in all their Erging Games Then one crazy Holiday Challenge Ranger Came to say I just love these lengthy rows, A full day straight should keep me on my toes. Then how the Ergers loved him As they shouted out with glee Ranger the Zatopek Erger, You're past the point of Ergsanity...

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » December 31st, 2005, 11:15 am

This whole idea of a 4 beat measure, with the arm pull being the down beat, isn't what rowing feels like to me at all. Of course I don't have even a fraction of the hours on the erg that you have, Rich, nor the results, so "consider the source" is a reasonable response to that. But I am a musician with a fair amount of experience as an orchestral violinist. The down beat is the strongest pulse in the measure, and to me, that's the leg drive, not the arm pull. I don't see how you are getting this sense of down beat on the end of the stroke like that. Do coxswains give a Power 10 count and count on the arm pull? No, they count for the drive--the count is like the conductor's down beat with the stick. And, to me, it's not a 4 beat measure. It's a waltz; drive, 2,3, drive 2,3. Leg drive at 1, hands away quick and forward lean at 2, knees up and up the slide on 3. The waltz beat is the rythym I feel at every pace except the mad ugly sprint at the end of some nightmarish peice and at that point I'm not thinking of anything except survival. Perhaps in a few years I'll feel the rythym, then, too. It's interesting to read this, though, and wonder if thinking about it while rowing would have the same effect on my stroke that thinking about the mechanics of swallowing can have when eating. If you don't watch out, the paralysis of analysis sets in and you end up either choking or sitting there with your mouth full.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » December 31st, 2005, 11:24 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Dec 31 2005, 10:11 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Ranger, Thank you. Being from a non-literary background, the rhythms of poetry have always been a bit of a mystery to me. I comprehended blank verse in high school and intuitively grasped the beat of the Man from Nantucket in all his glory, but iambs and troches remain a mystery to me. I have a new project: understanding the rhythm of rowing, and now I can tell my wife (who looks askance at me and my daughters as we row) that it's not just exercise, it's poetry in motion. </td></tr></table> Porkchop, now you're REALLY starting to creep me out ...

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 31st, 2005, 1:30 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Dec 31 2005, 10:15 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>This whole idea of a 4 beat measure, with the arm pull being the down beat, isn't what rowing feels like to me at all. Of course I don't have even a fraction of the hours on the erg that you have, Rich, nor the results, so "consider the source" is a reasonable response to that. But I am a musician with a fair amount of experience as an orchestral violinist. The down beat is the strongest pulse in the measure, and to me, that's the leg drive, not the arm pull. I don't see how you are getting this sense of down beat on the end of the stroke like that. Do coxswains give a Power 10 count and count on the arm pull? No, they count for the drive--the count is like the conductor's down beat with the stick. And, to me, it's not a 4 beat measure. It's a waltz; drive, 2,3, drive 2,3. Leg drive at 1, hands away quick and forward lean at 2, knees up and up the slide on 3. The waltz beat is the rythym I feel at every pace except the mad ugly sprint at the end of some nightmarish peice and at that point I'm not thinking of anything except survival. Perhaps in a few years I'll feel the rythym, then, too. It's interesting to read this, though, and wonder if thinking about it while rowing would have the same effect on my stroke that thinking about the mechanics of swallowing can have when eating. If you don't watch out, the paralysis of analysis sets in and you end up either choking or sitting there with your mouth full. </td></tr></table> Why is "Row, row your boat" in a four-beat measure, then? As you describe the meter of the rowing stroke, you can't row to the ditty at all! In "Row, row, row your boat," the downbeat is surely the arm pull. This ditty doesn't refer to competitive rowing in boats with sliding seats and strokes that begin with the legs. Nonetheless, I can row to "row, row, row your boat" (and a lot of rock music, which is almost always in a 4-beat measure) just fine. Can't you? I row like this. --1-----------------2-----------------3------------------4---------------------1 Row--------------Row--------------Row----your------boat----------------Gently... PULL------------recover-----------recover---------prepare---------------PULL with the--------------------------------------------with the legs arms--------------------------------------------------and back I think your problems with performance might be linked to your rhythmic perception, as I have been claiming in these posts. I can certainly row to the 3-beat meter you suggest, but the result is a technical mess! If the first beat comes with the leg drive, where do the second and third beats come? And if the measure is three-beat (at the level of the stroke cycle), how is the pulsing at the lowest level, between the major (tactical) beats? And what do you do on each of these subordinate beats? You syncopate the arm pull? Wierd. Paralyzing. No build up of energy throughout the drive. No transfer of rhythmic force from the legs and back to the arms. Strange placement of the peak of the drive (_after_ the downbeat, before the second beat?). I would love to see your PM3 force curve? Do you row on a D? Making the rhythm of the rowing stroke conscious helps me row--a lot. I can see why it would be paralyzing for you. ranger

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » December 31st, 2005, 1:37 pm

Going down to my rower to fiddle around with this. BRB

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » December 31st, 2005, 1:55 pm

I'm on a C with a PM3 I just got on Christmas, so I'm not all that familiar with the force curve. Yesterday when doing a warm up I looked at it for the first time, and it wasn't really a curve, it was a sort of rectangle, which I know is bad, right? I was intrigued by the graph but didn't really know what to do to change it. When I sped up to the pace I did the following hard 6K at, it came out just like it did now: I just ran down and did a few strokes (I'm in jeans & a sweater and it's about 80 in that room right now, so not time for a real row) and when I do 10 MPS in a waltz rythm my force curve is a sort of symetrical hump, not a perfect gumdrop. It has a little upward jerk at the start (no remarks about the jerk in the seat please) and then a fairly smooth bowl. I tried to do row starting at the arm pull as 1, and then 2, 3, and drive on 4. I think it made the little jerk at the start go away but it feels very discombobulated. The drive seems much shorter and faster than it does with 3 beats. I will have to experiment with this. But I still don't see why you call the arm pull the down beat. The leg drive is the strong beat of the measure, isn't it?

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 31st, 2005, 1:55 pm

Seat5-- My guess is that you are rowing as I used to row, by pulling with all of your levers at the same time, instead of timing and sequencing your levers with more delicacy, giving your stroke a "fat middle" that builds up energy through the drive, and so forth. If you just pull with all of your levers at once, the drive of the rowing stroke feels very much of a piece, like a musical beat; and with a stroke of this sort, fitting it to a waltz would present very few difficulties. drive--recover--recover --1-------2---------3 You don't get much force out of stroke mechanics of this sort, though, unless you row at maximum drag and pull like a mad bast..d, as I used to. You might want to reconsider your technique, as I have. ranger

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » December 31st, 2005, 2:03 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>PULL------------recover-----------recover---------prepare---------------PULL </td></tr></table> I assume leg drive must be really at "prepare?" If not, where is the leg drive? I do 1------------------------------2-----------------------------------3-----------------------1 Drive------------------arms away---------------------------knees bend------------Drive -------------------------------forward lean---------------------- up the slide Does this feel all wrong to you?

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The Rhythm Of The Rowing Stroke

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