Watts Per Kilogram

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » October 25th, 2005, 4:20 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(AtlCyclist @ Oct 25 2005, 08:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Wind resistance can be as bad as hills. In other words, if you get dropped from a group on the flats in a hard ride or race, you're likely to lose massive amounts of time because you'll be in the wind alone while the peloton can share the work. <br /><br />So, on climbs you want to minimize weight and on the flats minimize wind resistance (by aerodynamics and/or drafting). <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Good point. I haven't biked in a group so never experienced the extra drag from being "dropped". So on flats i guess you should be "fast enough to hang on" and on climbs "fast enough to catch the next group before next flat". <br /><br />I bike for transportation so I am not to experienced with racing strategies. Only racing I do is if I'm one the way home and see someone with "pro outfit" and an uphill right ahead . Especially if they just broke a traffic law, then they will be punished by being overtaken by civilian with a comfort bike.

[old] Citroen · Post by **[old] Citroen** » October 25th, 2005, 5:53 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(AtlCyclist @ Oct 25 2005, 09:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Wind resistance can be as bad as hills. In other words, if you get dropped from a group on the flats in a hard ride or race, you're likely to lose massive amounts of time because you'll be in the wind alone while the peloton can share the work. <br /><br />So, on climbs you want to minimize weight and on the flats minimize wind resistance (by aerodynamics and/or drafting). <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />On a descent gravity trumps wind resistance.<br /><br />Even on an easy going Sunday ride (about 17mph) getting dropped from the road club group hurts (by the time you've ridden 50miles and climbed a few hills). You end up having to ride hard to get back on the wheel of the guy in front. There's a lot of concentration needed to avoid half-wheeling (which can lead to tumbles) and to avoid being dropped. I'm hoping the Sunday rides this winter will be easier since I've been doing a lot more erging during this Autumn.<br /><br />If you want to know more about Dan Staite have a look at the Rowathlon thread on the UK Concept 2 forums <a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8071' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8071</a>. Dan is clearly a very powerful rower, cyclist and runner.

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » October 25th, 2005, 5:59 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>You could probably find some Rowers that have become medium competitive cyclists (they weight too much), but probably not the other way around (cyclists aren't large enough). </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Hi Paul,<br />Basically I think that's right. However, when I was involved with bike racing years ago, I noticed that rowers, speed skaters, and fencers made strong bike racers. I think a lightweight rower wouldn't have much trouble converting to road racing. For a large heavyweight, there are the power events like match sprints and the 1K TT. <br /><br />Byron

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » October 25th, 2005, 6:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Byron Drachman @ Oct 25 2005, 02:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>You could probably find some Rowers that have become medium competitive cyclists (they weight too much), but probably not the other way around (cyclists aren't large enough). </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Paul,<br />Basically I think that's right. However, when I was involved with bike racing years ago, I noticed that rowers, speed skaters, and fencers made strong bike racers. I think a lightweight rower wouldn't have much trouble converting to road racing. For a large heavyweight, there are the power events like match sprints and the 1K TT. <br /><br />Byron <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I guess I should have added speed skating, and lost a lot of weight. Didn't Eric Heiden give Track Cycling a try? Direct Drive brakeless bikes scare me. <br /><br />I came across a study that was comparing the VO2Max across sports and Fencers were very high on the list for Olympic sports, I'll say in the top 5 since I'm too lazy to go look for the exact ranking right now. I'm sure it was a large contributor to later rowing success. Volleyball players are another good source for rowers, as they are generally tall, fairly coordinated, and know how to use both legs together.

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » October 25th, 2005, 7:10 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />I guess I should have added speed skating, and lost a lot of weight. Didn't Eric Heiden give Track Cycling a try? Direct Drive brakeless bikes scare me. <br /><br />I came across a study that was comparing the VO2Max across sports and Fencers were very high on the list for Olympic sports, I'll say in the top 5 since I'm too lazy to go look for the exact ranking right now. I'm sure it was a large contributor to later rowing success. Volleyball players are another good source for rowers, as they are generally tall, fairly coordinated, and know how to use both legs together. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Paul,<br />Yes, I think he did the 1K TT, where the big guys dominate. When I'd look around on the starting line at a long road race, I never worried about the big guys. They were never around after a 100 miles on a hilly course. It's the skinny, hungry looking cyclists you have to worry about.<br />Most crashes in bike races are caused by people hitting the brakes. It is much safer to have no brakes on bikes on the track. <br />That's a good point about volleyball players. I never thought about that. Last Sunday I was in a local head race in a 4+. I was seated right behind an ex-varsity rower:<br /><br /><a href='http://msuspartans.collegesports.com/sp ... 05aac.html' target='_blank'>http://msuspartans.collegesports.com/sp ... tml</a><br /><br />who did volley ball, track, field, basketball, and who knows what else in high school. She is tall and strong. Holy Toledo, did she ever leave deep puddles. It was a thrill for me to be in the same boat.<br /><br />Byron<br /><br />

[old] ebolton · Post by **[old] ebolton** » October 25th, 2005, 7:22 pm

I've done many kinds of cycling including basic transportation, racing (road disciplines), loaded touring, fast and slow group rides. The one thing I do have lacking is that I've never ridden a fixie (Paul's direct drive bike with no brakes).<br /><br />Byron D made an astute comment in an earlier thread that went something like, "All cyclists go fast downhill, many go fast on the level, but only the strong ones go fast uphill" or WTTE. That's where you want that high power-to-weight ratio in cycling. It's also nice to be able to meter the power over a much longer time span than is true for most outdoor rowers, I imagine. The Sunday group rides I sometimes do can be 6 hours long.<br /><br />Riding in a fast group is very different than riding alone, or time-trialling. As Citroen alluded to, there are tactical considerations in the most friendly of rides.<br /><br />I've been riding with a core group of half a dozen or so that I've been riding with for many years now. After so much time together, we know each other very well. I know when any of them will lift to stand on any hill, and when I am on the wheel I can execute the little hesitation I need to do when their bike goes back to avoid touching wheels almost blindfolded. Likewise, they all know me as well. On larger group rides, we usually find each other and work together to get into a comfortable hole in the crowd. I bet it can be as much of a team effort as a drilled crew.<br /><br />Citroen, I bet you will find them a lot easier. I sure did!<br /><br />Ed

[old] AtlCyclist · Post by **[old] AtlCyclist** » October 25th, 2005, 7:34 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Oct 25 2005, 06:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Byron Drachman @ Oct 25 2005, 02:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>You could probably find some Rowers that have become medium competitive cyclists (they weight too much), but probably not the other way around (cyclists aren't large enough). </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Paul,<br />Basically I think that's right. However, when I was involved with bike racing years ago, I noticed that rowers, speed skaters, and fencers made strong bike racers. I think a lightweight rower wouldn't have much trouble converting to road racing. For a large heavyweight, there are the power events like match sprints and the 1K TT. <br /><br />Byron <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I guess I should have added speed skating, and lost a lot of weight. Didn't Eric Heiden give Track Cycling a try? Direct Drive brakeless bikes scare me. <br /><br />I came across a study that was comparing the VO2Max across sports and Fencers were very high on the list for Olympic sports, I'll say in the top 5 since I'm too lazy to go look for the exact ranking right now. I'm sure it was a large contributor to later rowing success. Volleyball players are another good source for rowers, as they are generally tall, fairly coordinated, and know how to use both legs together. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Eric Heiden became a road racer for the pioneering 7 Eleven pro cycling team after Lake Placid. He won the US Pro Cycling Championships in Philly (150 miles!), rode the Giro d'Italia and started the Tour de France but crashed out. He was more muscular than the average cyclist even after slimming down considerably. Of course, most importantly, he was immensely talented. <br /><br />Other speed skaters have done well in cycling. Connie Carpenter Phinney won a gold medal in LA in 1984 - she was a speed skater. Chris Witty won a bronze at a recent Olympics in a short distance speed skating event and she's been a national champion track cyclist. There are other examples. <br />

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » October 25th, 2005, 8:04 pm

Yes, I remember Eric Heiden winning that road race. It is unusual for someone that big to win a long road race, but as you say, he was very special. I'm not sure if I remember this right, but I thought Eric Heiden did very well at the one kilometer TT. Of course he was unusual that he won gold medals at all those different distances in speed skating. Sheila Young was another world champion at speed skating and cycling (sprinting.)<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The one thing I do have lacking is that I've never ridden a fixie </td></tr></table> <br /><br />I spent about 25 years doing almost all my riding on a fixed gear bike. Sometimes I had to spin like crazy to keep up with the group, and other times I had to power up hills. I used an 84 fixed gear track bike with a front brake. If nothing else, riding a fixed gear helps you keep your pedaling smooth. My top speed was about 40 mph (on a downhill.) That was nothing special. A good sprinter can turn 200 rpm or more. <br /><br />I wonder what kind of 500m on a C2 Eric Heiden would have pulled when he was a speed skater. <br /><br />Byron<br /><br /><br />

[old] rspenger · Post by **[old] rspenger** » October 25th, 2005, 11:35 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Oct 25 2005, 02:53 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>On a descent gravity trumps wind resistance. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Usually, yes. But not always. A few years ago, I did some solo, self-contained touring. My hybrid bike weighed about 30 pounds and I often had as much as 70 pounds of gear, including food and water. I remember one long, slow, but fortunately gentle climb, into the wind, and a great feeling of relief when I reached the crest and started down the steep grade on the other side, still with the wind in my face. It was a shock to find that the wind was much stronger on the way down and that it would have brought me to a stand still if I had not kept a steady pedal pressure. It was a narrow, winding descent, but fortunately there was almost no motor traffic. The worst part of it was that on many of the turns, I was getting the wind from the side and having to fight for balance. The heavy load helped to stabilize the ride. I don't think that I could have made it with an unloaded bike. Usually the descents are the real joy of biking, but not on that one.<br /><br />regards,<br /><br />Bob S.

[old] arakawa · Post by **[old] arakawa** » October 26th, 2005, 9:36 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Volleyball players are another good source for rowers, as they are generally tall, fairly coordinated, and know how to use both legs together. [right] </td></tr></table><br />As a former volleyball player, I heard that too (although we don't typically bring the same cardiovascular conditioning that, say, basketball players do).

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » October 26th, 2005, 3:56 pm

At my best I rowed ca. 500 Watts for 2K weighing in at 100kg.<br />XENO

[old] lowwall · Post by **[old] lowwall** » October 26th, 2005, 5:20 pm

Eric Heiden's weight was in his lower body where it would be of some help in cycling

<br /><br /><img src='http://static.userland.com/images/anand/EricHeiden.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><br /><br />Rowers' upper body development (read "unwanted weight and drag") would be a real handicap in road or track cycling. For example, Lance started out as a triathlete, so even he was considered too big for serious mountain stages, despite his incredible cardiovascular fitness. After cancer treatment essentially removed all his muscle tone, his intense training resulted in his rebuilding just the muscles he needed, turning him into such a terror on the mountains.<br /><br />Lance in 1993<br /><br /><img src='http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/4105 ... ace203.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><br /><br />Lance in 2005<br /><br /><img src='http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/a ... 050719.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><br />

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » October 26th, 2005, 5:49 pm

Hi Xeno,<br /><br />It makes us appreciate Lance Armstrong, who could maintain about 500 watts for 20 minutes while hill climbing: <br /><br /><a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/14/scien ... cI5+7ApEXA' target='_blank'>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/14/scien ... EXA</a><br /><br />I still love the DVD's, and never get tired of them. I also like the introduction to DVD#1, where you're rowing on the water. Now that I've been rowing on the water, I can appreciate how easy you make it look.<br /><br />Byron

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » October 26th, 2005, 6:33 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Byron Drachman @ Oct 26 2005, 04:49 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hi Xeno,<br /><br />It makes us appreciate Lance Armstrong, who could maintain about 500 watts for 20 minutes while hill climbing: <br /><br /><a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/14/scien ... cI5+7ApEXA' target='_blank'>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/14/scien ... EXA</a><br /><br />I still love the DVD's, and never get tired of them. I also like the introduction to DVD#1, where you're rowing on the water. Now that I've been rowing on the water, I can appreciate how easy you make it look.<br /><br />Byron <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hi Byron<br />Thanks for the compliments on the DVDs. I am working on recording my voice during the Iron Oarsman workouts. Like this anyone can download a new workout via the internet onto their MP3 player.<br />I don't know the accuracy of 500Watts for twenty minutes. <br />Talk to you soon.<br />XENO<br />Oh and check out the blog that I started: wwwgorowcom.blogspot.com

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » October 26th, 2005, 6:54 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Byron Drachman @ Oct 26 2005, 12:04 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Yes, I remember Eric Heiden winning that road race. It is unusual for someone that big to win a long road race, but as you say, he was very special. I'm not sure if I remember this right, but I thought Eric Heiden did very well at the one kilometer TT. Of course he was unusual that he won gold medals at all those different distances in speed skating. Sheila Young was another world champion at speed skating and cycling (sprinting.)<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The one thing I do have lacking is that I've never ridden a fixie </td></tr></table><br /><br />I spent about 25 years doing almost all my riding on a fixed gear bike. Sometimes I had to spin like crazy to keep up with the group, and other times I had to power up hills. I used an 84 fixed gear track bike with a front brake. If nothing else, riding a fixed gear helps you keep your pedaling smooth. My top speed was about 40 mph (on a downhill.) That was nothing special. A good sprinter can turn 200 rpm or more. <br /><br />I wonder what kind of 500m on a C2 Eric Heiden would have pulled when he was a speed skater. <br /><br />Byron <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hey Byron,<br />I'm just trying to get used to my new spiffy Specialized 27 gear bike, upgrading from the 12 gear 37 lb Raleigh. Saturday I went for a ride and feel that I'm still not getting what I should out of the upgrade--I'm having trouble adjusting to so many gears and the set up doesn't feel right yet. When I got home I was just beat; it was only 40 miles, and the average seemed way low (16.2). When I checked the bike computer I found the average cadence at 88 and the max at 145. I never had a cadence counter before and on the few other rides I've done with this bike the max was 118. Should I be staying on the middle front sprocket mostly or the top one or what? What should I be aiming at for cadence? Re: speed, I've done this same ride a million times just as fast on the heavy bike, so I'm frustrated!<br />

Concept2 Forum

Watts Per Kilogram

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training