Strengths &weaknesses

[[old] slugger]

hi all,,only been rowing 2 months now ,but some interesting points are emerging.<br />i have no real set training regime as my first goal is fun,i usually row for 15 mins with damper set between 7-10/first 5 mins @2.00-2.05 then up to 1.50 for 1 minute back for 2 mins @2.00 up to 1.45 for 1 min &so on peaking at 1.40 <br /><br />after this i usually do about an hour of weights, typical 6-10 reps 3 sets<br />i try to train 3 times a week<br /><br />yesterday i tried something a little different ,i went flat out with damper set on 10 for 1000 mts &achieved 3.28,which i was very satisfied with but this brings me to my question<br /><br />do you concentrate on the areas of your weaknesses,mine seem to b aerobic capacity/fitness,,or build on strengths,lol which mine seems to be "strength"<br /><br />be very interested to here others experiences &any tips would be greatly apreciated<br />

[[old] runningsteve251]

Slugger, I think I'm the opposite to you, I have been running and cycling most of my life and have done some indoor rowing to try and do something for the upper body. I can sit there all day and row at 2 mins per 500, but if I try and push it down to 1:50 kind of range or just below it gets REAL hard after about 15 mins. If I row 1 minute reps I get down to 1:45. I am guessing for me it is lack of upper body strength that is stopping me from going any faster at the moment. <br /><br />I would think you need to concentrate on developing your aerobic capacity, some 10,000M rows should help, or you could just go for a run or ride the bike once in a while. I probably need to do your 1 hour weight sessions.

[[old] neilb]

I suspect that strength gains will give a fairly quick benefit but of limited potential.<br /><br />Aerobic fitness base needed for any real long term gains and to maximise the improvements (and also better overall for health etc.)<br /><br />Of course the problem is that gaining strength (as against bulking up muscle) is often seen as being more fun and less hard than improving cv capability.<br /><br />Depends on what your goals are and whether these include rowing as a specific goal or just as a training tool. <br /><br />Best way to improve cv and also muscle strength and tone as a secondary benefit is to row but at a lower damper setting and for longer. There are a lot of threads on the forum covering this. Damper 10 is weightlifting!<br /><br />The main thing though is to ensure that technique is sound. If you try and use strength alone to go faster without a really good technique you wil be limiting your ability and increasing the risk of injury.<br /><br />Also ensure that core and lower back strength is good to help maintain good posture and so minimise risk of injury.<br /><br />If you are enjoying what you are doing and that is the goal then stick with it but if you want to row better then you need to work smarter. <br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />If 2:00 is okay all day but 1:50 is too hard after 15 mins increased upper body strength will not help much. I doubt it is lack of upper body strength that is holding you back. Better cv to provide more oxygen to the muscles will help, so will adaptation of the muscles to use it more efficiently mainly the lower body muscles and better efficency through good technique.<br /><br />Strength has a role to play but it is secondary (particularly uper body)<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />

[[old] Meri Goehring]

Interesting discussion. I never change the damper from 10. I've been rowing only 3 months-finally, no more new blisters! Goal to loose weight, so go 10000 six days/wk, weight lift 2x/wk, alternating legs/arms but always include trunk. I recently figured out how to join a team (for motivation) and log meters. Funny thing is, I find I rank very high for my age. Is this because I am tall (6') and heavy (210 with goal of 180)?? Or not many people in my age group (I am 51)? Just wondering.<br />Meri Goehring<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-neilb+Sep 20 2005, 08:07 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(neilb @ Sep 20 2005, 08:07 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I suspect that strength gains will give a fairly quick benefit but of limited potential.<br /><br />Aerobic fitness base needed for any real long term gains and to maximise the improvements (and also better overall for health etc.)<br /><br />Of course the problem is that gaining strength (as against bulking up muscle) is often seen as being more fun and less hard than improving cv capability.<br /><br />Depends on what your goals are and whether these include rowing as a specific goal or just as a training tool.  <br /><br />Best way to improve cv and also muscle strength and tone as a secondary benefit is to row but at a lower damper setting and for longer. There are a lot of threads on the forum covering this.  Damper 10 is weightlifting!<br /><br />The main thing though is to ensure that technique is sound.  If you try and use strength alone to go faster without a really good technique you wil be limiting your ability and increasing the risk of injury.<br /><br />Also ensure that core and lower back strength is good to help maintain good posture and so minimise risk of injury.<br /><br />If you are enjoying what you are doing and that is the goal then stick with it but if you want to row better then you need to work smarter.  <br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />If 2:00 is okay all day but 1:50 is too hard after 15 mins increased upper body strength will not help much.  I doubt it is lack of upper body strength that is holding you back.  Better cv to provide more oxygen to the muscles will help, so will adaptation of the muscles to use it more efficiently mainly the lower body muscles and better efficency through good technique.<br /><br />Strength has a role to play but it is secondary (particularly uper body) <br /> </td></tr></table><br />

[[old] JimR]

<!--QuoteBegin-Meri Goehring+Sep 20 2005, 02:52 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Meri Goehring @ Sep 20 2005, 02:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Funny thing is, I find I rank very high for my age. Is this because I am tall (6') and heavy (210 with goal of 180)?? Or not many people in my age group (I am 51)? Just wondering.<br />Meri Goehring<br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />IF you are female (can't infer from name or posting) then I would say height and weight are a big factor. The fact that you are at the younger side of an age bracket helps too.<br /><br />If you go from 210 to 180 and maintain/increase muscle mass you could actually get faster (all things being equal) still.<br /><br />JimR

[[old] runningsteve251]

<!--QuoteBegin-Meri Goehring+Sep 20 2005, 02:52 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Meri Goehring @ Sep 20 2005, 02:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Interesting discussion. I never change the damper from 10. I've been rowing only 3 months-finally, no more new blisters! Goal to loose weight, so go 10000 six days/wk, weight lift 2x/wk, alternating legs/arms but always include trunk. I recently figured out how to join a team (for motivation) and log meters.  Funny thing is, I find I rank very high for my age. Is this because I am tall (6') and heavy (210 with goal of 180)?? Or not many people in my age group (I am 51)? Just wondering.<br />Meri Goehring<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-neilb+Sep 20 2005, 08:07 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(neilb @ Sep 20 2005, 08:07 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I suspect that strength gains will give a fairly quick benefit but of limited potential.<br /><br />Aerobic fitness base needed for any real long term gains and to maximise the improvements (and also better overall for health etc.)<br /><br />Of course the problem is that gaining strength (as against bulking up muscle) is often seen as being more fun and less hard than improving cv capability.<br /><br />Depends on what your goals are and whether these include rowing as a specific goal or just as a training tool.  <br /><br />Best way to improve cv and also muscle strength and tone as a secondary benefit is to row but at a lower damper setting and for longer. There are a lot of threads on the forum covering this.  Damper 10 is weightlifting!<br /><br />The main thing though is to ensure that technique is sound.  If you try and use strength alone to go faster without a really good technique you wil be limiting your ability and increasing the risk of injury.<br /><br />Also ensure that core and lower back strength is good to help maintain good posture and so minimise risk of injury.<br /><br />If you are enjoying what you are doing and that is the goal then stick with it but if you want to row better then you need to work smarter.  <br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />If 2:00 is okay all day but 1:50 is too hard after 15 mins increased upper body strength will not help much.  I doubt it is lack of upper body strength that is holding you back.  Better cv to provide more oxygen to the muscles will help, so will adaptation of the muscles to use it more efficiently mainly the lower body muscles and better efficency through good technique.<br /><br />Strength has a role to play but it is secondary (particularly uper body) <br /> </td></tr></table> <br /> </td></tr></table><br />

[[old] runningsteve251]

<!--QuoteBegin-runningsteve251+Sep 21 2005, 08:48 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(runningsteve251 @ Sep 21 2005, 08:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Meri Goehring+Sep 20 2005, 02:52 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Meri Goehring @ Sep 20 2005, 02:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Interesting discussion. I never change the damper from 10. I've been rowing only 3 months-finally, no more new blisters! Goal to loose weight, so go 10000 six days/wk, weight lift 2x/wk, alternating legs/arms but always include trunk. I recently figured out how to join a team (for motivation) and log meters.  Funny thing is, I find I rank very high for my age. Is this because I am tall (6') and heavy (210 with goal of 180)?? Or not many people in my age group (I am 51)? Just wondering.<br />Meri Goehring<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-neilb+Sep 20 2005, 08:07 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(neilb @ Sep 20 2005, 08:07 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I suspect that strength gains will give a fairly quick benefit but of limited potential.<br /><br />Aerobic fitness base needed for any real long term gains and to maximise the improvements (and also better overall for health etc.)<br /><br />Of course the problem is that gaining strength (as against bulking up muscle) is often seen as being more fun and less hard than improving cv capability.<br /><br />Depends on what your goals are and whether these include rowing as a specific goal or just as a training tool.  <br /><br />Best way to improve cv and also muscle strength and tone as a secondary benefit is to row but at a lower damper setting and for longer. There are a lot of threads on the forum covering this.  Damper 10 is weightlifting!<br /><br />The main thing though is to ensure that technique is sound.  If you try and use strength alone to go faster without a really good technique you wil be limiting your ability and increasing the risk of injury.<br /><br />Also ensure that core and lower back strength is good to help maintain good posture and so minimise risk of injury.<br /><br />If you are enjoying what you are doing and that is the goal then stick with it but if you want to row better then you need to work smarter.  <br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />If 2:00 is okay all day but 1:50 is too hard after 15 mins increased upper body strength will not help much.  I doubt it is lack of upper body strength that is holding you back.  Better cv to provide more oxygen to the muscles will help, so will adaptation of the muscles to use it more efficiently mainly the lower body muscles and better efficency through good technique.<br /><br />Strength has a role to play but it is secondary (particularly uper body) <br /> </td></tr></table> <br /> </td></tr></table> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />NeilB, your 10K time is impressive, what damper setting do you use? I am another one that probably uses 10 too much, if I do reps I would use the 5 setting to warm up and warm down but for the interval and the 10K time trial I use the 10 setting. I am 6 ft 3 and about 180 pounds so I get a pretty good long stroke, I also go all the way forward and am almost touching the oar holder at the catch and row at about 27 strokes a minute. My goal is to row about 3 times a week to supplement my running and cycling and to get on the first page of the 10K rankings!<br />

[[old] neilb]

<!--QuoteBegin-runningsteve251+Sep 21 2005, 08:03 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(runningsteve251 @ Sep 21 2005, 08:03 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />NeilB, your 10K time is impressive, what damper setting do you use? [right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />steve,<br /><br />I do all my erging at df 120. On he gym machines this is about 5-6 but at the boatclube where they are maintained better it is around 3-4 I think. Important to use df rather than damper setting as former can vary for a given setting depending on a number of factors.<br /><br />My 10k time came about from a lot of 60 min (22-24 spm) and 30 min (24-28 spm)work at steady pace probably doing 3 or 4 x 60 min rows and 2 or 3 30 min rows each week. Spent a lot of time on technique/power.<br /><br />If you row 3 times a week then I would aim for the longer steady sessions to build a good base/technique and this will then help generate good 10k times. I would not bother to much with intervals if 10k is your goal.<br /><br />At 6' 3" you have a good height advantage and sounds like you are using it well. Make sure you are not overreaching. There are a number of threads on this but basically you should not be coming so far forward that your shins go past vertical and the reach should be by bending at the hips not rolling the upper body forward or letting shoulders drop forward. (This way you maintain a good strong body position with back in the right shape to benefit from a strong leg drive.).<br /><br />Neil

[[old] runningsteve251]

Thanks Neil, the machines we have at the Fitness center are MOdel B's and I dont think they have the DF setting on them. I'll try and work on my technique. Guess I was assuming that you would need to do reps even for 10K kind of distance because that is what you would do for any running program, even up to marathon distance. The longest I have rowed so far is about 48 mins, I'll try and build that up a bit.

[[old] neilb]

<!--QuoteBegin-runningsteve251+Sep 24 2005, 10:05 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(runningsteve251 @ Sep 24 2005, 10:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks Neil, the machines we have at the Fitness center are MOdel B's  and I dont think they have the DF setting on them.  I'll try and work on my technique.  Guess I was assuming that you would need to do reps even for 10K kind of distance because that is what you would do for any running program, even up to marathon distance. The longest I have rowed so far is about 48 mins, I'll try and build that up a bit. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />Reps and intervals always have a place in any training, if only to help relieve boredom. Problem is that if you are only doing a few sessions a week and one of those is intervals progress will be that much slower.<br /><br />I have now started to add in one 4 x 2k and one 4x1k in an eight day cycle to start to sharpen up my spedd work for BIRC.<br /><br />If you were to do say 10 min warm up then 4x2k or 4x1k with 4 or 5 mins rest and finish with 10 min cool down then that would be a good 60 min+ session with intervals as well.<br /><br />It may not always be easy but it is generally rewarding to do it and enjoyable to have done it. Also these interval sessions will help develop the mental toughness needed to produce your best over 10k.<br /><br />If you can do 48 mins already then you clearly have a reasonable base to build from. Remember it is quality not quantity that really matters so concentrate on good strong technique before looking to extend the 48 mins too soon (but one will quickly lead to the other.)<br /><br />Try and lower the df a bit to help with the long steady rows and over time you will see upper body gains as well as much bettr 10k times. <br /><br />Most important of all have fun (and let us know how you progress.) <br /><br />Neil

[[old] runningsteve251]

Thanks for the advise Neil , a couple of days ago I tried a 10K with the damper on 7 instead of 10 and tried to concentate on not dropping my shoulders as you said. I managed 10 seconds quicker (now at 36:48). It did feel quite a bit easier than the last 10K I rowed which was a real all out effort, and I was also able to row the next day without any aches or pains. I will throw in the odd interval session just to keep things interesting. <br />