Do You Want To Know How To Train?

[old] Stevo · Post by **[old] Stevo** » July 2nd, 2005, 5:32 am

He He He....this is all too funny.<br /><br />and yet strange.......a negative word from JR prompts all and sundry to rush and buy the book...?<br /><br />Maybe if you had said it 'rocked', John, they would have thought twice about picking it up...

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » July 2nd, 2005, 10:48 am

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » July 3rd, 2005, 8:51 am

Here's an idea ... "borrow" the book from the library, read it, and then post a review for all to see. No dough expended, same result. In fact, let's all get the book from our respective libraries, read it, review it, and then we'll have some statistically relevant data, by people who understand our sport, upon which to pass judgment.<br /><br />GO BUCKS!!! BEAT MICHIGAN!!! BEAT TEXAS!!!<br />

[old] nkoffler · Post by **[old] nkoffler** » July 5th, 2005, 11:04 am

Re: Xeno's comments about university level rowing<br /><br />Xeno-<br /><br />It is very interesting that no one is using lactate testing for rowing coaching. There is likely a great deal of potential improvement available. Of course, you know all about the attention and funding that non-revenue producing sports receive at US schools. Also, your comment about only a few coaches being able to train their crews may be overlooking the recruiting advantages the established coaches have. If I were someone with an established skill (i.e. crew), I'd be looking for the historically successful programs. Self-fulfilling cycle especially with a small pool of pre-qualified participants. <br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Neil

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » July 5th, 2005, 1:47 pm

Such testing has long been used with runners, and found to not be all that useful for training purposes.<br /><br />To the contrary, it is often misinterpreted.

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » July 5th, 2005, 2:49 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 5 2005, 12:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Such testing has long been used with runners, and found to not be all that useful for training purposes.<br /><br />To the contrary, it is often misinterpreted. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Lactate testing is the latest and so far best method to structure a taining program with the goal of one to two maximum performances in a twelve months cycle.<br /><br />I am certain that in the future there will be better methods.<br /><br />One thing is certain: Understanding lactate levels is the solution to avoid overtraining.<br /><br />XENO<br /><br />

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » July 5th, 2005, 3:00 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jul 5 2005, 02:49 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 5 2005, 12:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Such testing has long been used with runners, and found to not be all that useful for training purposes.<br /><br />To the contrary, it is often misinterpreted. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Lactate testing is the latest and so far best method to structure a taining program with the goal of one to two maximum performances in a twelve months cycle.<br /><br />I am certain that in the future there will be better methods.<br /><br />One thing is certain: Understanding lactate levels is the solution to avoid overtraining.<br /><br />XENO <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Xeno:<br /><br />Being new to this (May '05 start with my Model D), are there other indicators of overtraining that are more subtle (and more objective) than, "I just feel tired?" I was a distance runner in high school, and I often had some of my best workouts when I started out feeling "tired".<br /><br />Thanks a bunch for your great perspectives and willingness to share.<br /><br />Regards -- Mark<br />

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 5th, 2005, 3:06 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jul 5 2005, 10:49 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Lactate testing is the latest and so far best method to structure a taining program with the goal of one to two maximum performances in a twelve months cycle.<br /><br />I am certain that in the future there will be better methods.<br /><br />One thing is certain: Understanding lactate levels is the solution to avoid overtraining.<br /><br />XENO <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Xeno,<br /><br />I would expect that you have had a fair amount of experience in your training, and also now with the Lactate Pro. Have you ever been "surprised" by what the Lactate Pro is telling you about how you are doing, or does it more or less confirm what you are already feeling, based on previous training periods?<br /><br />My initial reation to Lactate testing was that it would be mostly useful for very highly motivated athletes, which are at a far greater risk of "over-training" than the vast majority of folks. The same kind of folks really do need some form of coaching supervision also, since they tend toward the "more is better" attitude, regardless of how many times that has been shown to be the quickest way to injury rather than improvement.<br /><br />Cheers!<br />

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 5th, 2005, 3:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mel Harbour @ Jul 1 2005, 10:53 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jul 1 2005, 10:35 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>John, STFU! Idiot!<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ditto!

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 5th, 2005, 3:40 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jul 1 2005, 01:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What would be fun is to ask John what book he considers to be a good book on training. Surely it will be something about kenyan runners and how being at altitude is an advantage for those courageous enough to perform.<br /><br />I'd do it, but he ignores my posts, thank goodness! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Maybe he'd liked Arnold's "Complete Encyclopedia on Bodybuilding". Of course it has <b>nothing</b> to do with rowing/erging.

[old] Pete Marston · Post by **[old] Pete Marston** » July 5th, 2005, 3:46 pm

I don't really know anything about training by lactate levels. I've read various discussions and points of view before though. Surely the level of blood lactate you can tolerate is as individual as the HR you can row at for a certain length of time? So telling someone to row say at 2mmol for 60mins as the best way to do an aerobic workout is as pointless as telling someone to row at 150 HR, or even 80% max HR? If someone can comfortably row at 2.5mmol (or whatever) for that same 60min workout, is that not better? And therefore is a perceived exersion measure not better than lactate levels?<br /><br />I know how fast I can row flat out for 60mins. I know how much slower I need to go to make it a comfortable, but still solid, workout. I know how slow to go before it feels very easy.<br /><br />Say my anaerobic threshold (are AT and LT different, practically speaking?) is 165bpm. Will I only be able to row for the same duration at 170bpm as someone else the same amount over there AT? Or will the better trained person, as well as perhaps having a higher AT, also be able to row for longer above their AT, because they can both clear lactate faster, and tolerate more of it in their system? I don't know what my AT is, but the more I train, the more I seem to be able to tolerate high levels of lactate, and to clear it faster.<br /><br />Rambling thoughts there perhaps, and not too relevant to the thread.

[old] rick-the-chemist · Post by **[old] rick-the-chemist** » July 5th, 2005, 4:17 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Pete Marston @ Jul 5 2005, 02:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Rambling thoughts there perhaps, and not too relevant to the thread. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Very thought provoking though, this is something i have often thought about but have never dared ask <br /><br />Rick

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 5th, 2005, 4:31 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rick-the-chemist @ Jul 5 2005, 03:17 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Pete Marston @ Jul 5 2005, 02:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Rambling thoughts there perhaps, and not too relevant to the thread. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Very thought provoking though, this is something i have often thought about but have never dared ask <br /><br />Rick <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Very good point Pete. Anyone care to follow up?<br /><br />Dwayne

[old] H_2O · Post by **[old] H_2O** » July 5th, 2005, 7:08 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jul 5 2005, 03:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Very good point Pete. Anyone care to follow up?<br /><br />Dwayne<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Realistically most people won't have access to lactate testing.<br />So we can let the pace replace the lactate level. Important paces<br /><br />10K pace (to push the AnT up, a little faster than the AnT itself)<br />7 minute max pace (a little slower than 2K pace, pushing up VO2max)<br /><br />The idea is to spend time at these paces in the form of intervals.<br />Disregard the heart rate. If you don't feel good that day shorten the work period and/or lengthen the recovery period or reduce the number of reps.<br /><br />Lactate testing might be useful for elite athletes pushing huge training volumes<br />to prevent overtraining. Since most of us row very little by comparison (myself about 6-7 hours a week) we can safely err on the faster side of life.<br /><br />

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » July 5th, 2005, 7:45 pm

From the latest C2 newletter in the UK:<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Terry O'Neill: Training intensities are determined by blood lactate levels, but you have to use the tools available. Monitoring blood lactate in real time is impracticable and the most practical way to monitor work intensity is heart rate. It is eminently sensible to get a lactate profile so you know what heart rate relates to what lactate level.<br /><br />There are caveats and one is the heart is not only supplying oxygen and nutrients to working muscles, it also has to deal with stabilising the body temperature and fighting invasive bacteria. For these reasons you could have an elevated heart rate that is nothing to do with work intensity.<br /><br />If you are feeling OK and it is a hot or humid day then you can expect your heat rate to be elevated and yes, ignore it, because if it is a result of ambient temperature, your lactate levels will not be higher.<br /><br /><b>My views are these. If you are on a high volume training plan, (15-20+ hours a week) then you have to be very careful about work intensity, as the risk is over-training. If you train once a day there is virtually no risk of over-training and in this case a high intensity programme can be followed. If you follow a high intensity programme then you can work on power output and forget heart rate. You can also work on power output on the high volume programme but high performance athletes have a substantial support mechanism as a safety net.</b> </td></tr></table><br /><br />George