Given The Choice..

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 25th, 2005, 8:06 pm

When I first did the PAT tables there were some trends that stood out.<br /><br />For example, I ran a curve from Rich's 6:28.0 at age 52, to the WR 2k PAT time at age 30. Just now I did the same thing again, also from Graham Watt's 2k at age 50 through the WR 2k PAT time at age 30.<br /><br />Both of these give a 2k time of 6:15.6 at age 40.<br /><br />This really underestimates the potential for that age though, as the drop off from age 30 to 40 is much less than from 40 to 50. Thus my feeling at that time and now is that, based on other current WR's, the age 40 record for lightweights should be around 6:13 or so. In any case a range of 6:13 to 6:15.5 or so would be more equitable with other records.<br /><br />Thus I wouldn't put too much credence in a record that stands so far from the curve.<br /><br />As has been mentioned before, the best examples are the top lightweight rowers in the world and we know very well who they are: Elia Luina, Eskild Ebbesen et all.<br /><br />None of these rowers restrict their rates in competition.<br /><br />Certainly others do. But they do so to the detriment of themselves and their times.<br /><br />So be it.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 25th, 2005, 8:09 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 25 2005, 03:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Mike and Graham seem to have a good, balanced perspective. Something that is sorely lacking in the majority of the posts on this thread. </td></tr></table><br />O.K. But why?<br /><br />ranger </td></tr></table><br />Because neither one of them have posted here. <br />

[old] donm79 · Post by **[old] donm79** » January 25th, 2005, 8:10 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 25 2005, 07:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>When I first did the PAT tables there were some trends that stood out.<br /><br />For example, I ran a curve from Rich's 6:28.0 at age 52, to the WR 2k PAT time at age 30. Just now I did the same thing again, also from Graham Watt's 2k at age 50 through the WR 2k PAT time at age 30.<br /><br />Both of these give a 2k time of 6:15.6 at age 40.<br /><br />This really underestimates the potential for that age though, as the drop off from age 30 to 40 is much less than from 40 to 50. Thus my feeling at that time and now is that, based on other current WR's, the age 40 record for lightweights should be around 6:13 or so. In any case a range of 6:13 to 6:15.5 or so would be more equitable with other records.<br /><br />Thus I wouldn't put too much credence in a record that stands so far from the curve.<br /><br />As has been mentioned before, the best examples are the top lightweight rowers in the world and we know very well who they are: Elia Luina, Eskild Ebbesen et all.<br /><br />None of these rowers restrict their rates in competition.<br /><br />Certainly others do. But they do so to the detriment of themselves and their times.<br /><br />So be it. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Who restricts their rate in a 2k competition? I've never heard of this and it seems a silly thing to do if there is no rating restriction built into the competition rules.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 25th, 2005, 8:11 pm

George,<br /><br />Thank you for clarifying about Graham, and his record.

[old] donm79 · Post by **[old] donm79** » January 25th, 2005, 8:14 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 25 2005, 06:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Mike and Graham seem to have a good, balanced perspective. Something that is sorely lacking in the majority of the posts on this thread. </td></tr></table><br /><br />O.K. But why?<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />They seem to have a good handle on the purpose of competition and where it fits into their lives. I don't know either man, and I take this only from the comments Dennis has offered.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » January 25th, 2005, 8:15 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 26 2005, 12:25 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Intangibles are everywhere. No one denies them. And I have also been saying that records are not the issue for me. Getting better and rowing on the water are the issues for me now. <br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ranger can you tell us what is your motivation to race these days, as this is something I struggle with in my own training (to train for fun or to compete) - to keep going sometimes and I dont have half the discipline your have?<br /><br />If the determining factor is control over your stroke (the lack of such being your reason for not racing at past events) - what has been the trigger point in your training that you are not ready to race?<br /><br />And if you race, what will be your objective - to take part for the experience (you have been there and done that), to win (you have been there many times), to set records (this does not motivate you anymore so I imagine not)<br /><br />I guess I am looking to see what drives a champion athlete as it is rare for people to have access to the likes of your self and Dwayne and others and is appreciated.<br /><br />George<br />

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » January 25th, 2005, 8:25 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dennish @ Jan 25 2005, 02:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> For one thing, neither is in the least concerned with being a WR holder... </td></tr></table><br /><br />Maybe it's your choice of using the word "concerned," but I find this hard to believe. I can't imagine anybody who participates in indoor racing, not being at least happy, proud, satisfied, thrilled, excited, pleased, or something along that lines, in setting and holding a world record. They may not feel the need to bring it up in "every" conversation, but I'm pretty sure they feel something.<br />

[old] donm79 · Post by **[old] donm79** » January 25th, 2005, 8:34 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Jan 25 2005, 07:25 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>They may not feel the need to bring it up in "every" conversation, but I'm pretty sure they feel something. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Surely nobody would be that self-absorbed!<br />

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » January 25th, 2005, 8:37 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(donm79 @ Jan 25 2005, 04:34 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Jan 25 2005, 07:25 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>They may not feel the need to bring it up in "every" conversation, but I'm pretty sure they feel something. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Surely nobody would be that self-absorbed! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /> <br />

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 28th, 2005, 5:38 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Ranger can you tell us what is your motivation to race these days, as this is something I struggle with in my own training (to train for fun or to compete) - to keep going sometimes and I dont have half the discipline your have?<br /><br />If the determining factor is control over your stroke (the lack of such being your reason for not racing at past events) - what has been the trigger point in your training that you are not ready to race?<br /><br />And if you race, what will be your objective - to take part for the experience (you have been there and done that), to win (you have been there many times), to set records (this does not motivate you anymore so I imagine not)<br /><br />I guess I am looking to see what drives a champion athlete as it is rare for people to have access to the likes of your self and Dwayne and others and is appreciated.<br /><br />George<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />George--<br /><br />Good and fair question, but one that I have answered many times: I am trying to get better, both on the erg and on the water. <br /><br />My first strategy for trying to get better (both on the erg and on the water) has been to try to improve my technique by dropping the drag and learning to use a standard on water stroke. The stroke I used to use was not standard at all, and for the most part, I rowed at nearly maximal drag. I have been working on this for two off-seasons, and (now) one racing season. I am now ready to race with this new stroke and at low drag (114 df.), I think, although I have certainly not yet mastered the stroke completely. I would say that I have mastered it up to about AT rowing. I haven't yet mastered it at race pace and rate (and above), TR and AN rowing. I am working on this technical and physical challenge now.<br /><br />My second strategy for trying to get better is to train in a more standard way, one that takes full advantage of the wisdom of those who know rowing better than I do (a _very_ large class of folks, I am afraid, almost everyone!). <br /><br />Do I want to race? Sure, both on the erg and on the water. I think the whole regatta thing is great fun, both to participate in and to watch. I also like the comraderie that it fosters, the social scene. <br /><br />Do I want to win? Sure. Who doesn't? By definition, I think, racing means trying your best. If you try your best and you don't win, so it goes. I _never_ won a road race during my 25 years as a runner, but I loved racing so I participated in competitions hundreds of times, including about 30 marathons. If you try your best and win, though, all the better. It is somewhat of an accidental thing, I guess, pretty strongly dependent on your given talent for the sport more than your training, but even those who are very talented at something need to work hard if they are going to win. They need to develop and use their talent. So if you win, it is a certain sort of (accidental but pleasing) reward for your hard work.<br /><br />Do I want to set records? Sure. Who doesn't? If it turns out that you not only win but are the best that has ever been in the sport, wow, it is like anything else that you find you can do in some sort of unique way, for instance, your job, your parenting, your relationships with your spouse and friends, your mastery of some art form (music, painting, dance, singing, literature, etc.). It is a kind of ultimate self-actualization. If you break world records in some sport, I think, the result is telling you something about what you (in this dimension) were somewhat destined to be. This is quite an experience--eerie, in certain ways, but also great, especially if you are my age (54). Barring catastrophic illness, accident, etc., from now on, we are all going to live _very_ long lives. As we do this, our "adult" lives as parents and workers will start to fade somewhat in importance. Retirement, life as an "elder", will start to be longer than "adulthood." This life as an elder can be many things, but most of it, I think, will be focussed on self-actualization. In this long span (which may soon approach 50 years), you have the freedom to find out who you are and what you can be--in many dimensions. Finding out that you can break world records in some sport, I think, is finding out something of this sort. Yes, this is a self-absorption. But so it goes. It doesn't at all mean that the rest of your life is self-absorbed, though. By definition, your relationships with your children, friends, spouse, neighbors, colleagues, and so forth, if successful, _cannot_ be self-absorbed. For most of us, much of our work is more service and necessity than self-actualization, and our work life is usually about 50 years long! In the end, for most of us, most of life is not at all about self-absorption. Setting world records in something might be an exception, though. It is pretty rare to do something uniquely. The whole affair becomes somewhat artistic/aesthetic rather than just practical. When you break a world record, the result, by definition, is pretty individualistic, a result of who and what you are, not just some sort of routine affair. Even though I didn't start rowing until I was 50, I seem to be somewhat of a rowing freak. That is, even though I didn't find this out until a couple of years ago, I was probably born to row. I am just talented at it. And whatever you are talented at is very satisfying to do, especially if life is long.<br /><br />Or so it seems to me.<br /><br />ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 28th, 2005, 6:11 am

Excuse me for saying so openly, but it seems bizarre in the extreme to try to characterize indoor rowing as social service, selfless dedication to others, self-sacrifice, and so forth. Yikes! If this is how you spend your selfless moments and dedicated service, heaven help you. Sliding up and down on a rail by yourself for hours and hours?<br /><br />Indoor rowing is a sport, play. If you are a rowing coach or instructor or trainer (or, say, those who work for C2), sport can indeed also be work and/or social service. But for most participants, sports are just play; and play, by definition, is the _opposite_ of self-sacrificial social service. Sports are pleasurable and individual self-expression, like art (or crafts, hobbies, etc.). <br /><br />ranger

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