Weight Training For Erging

[old] grandslam · Post by **[old] grandslam** » January 1st, 2005, 10:55 pm

OK, I've found and read small studies that concluded actual rowing is better than weight lifting to improve rowing. Specificity being the key. Could anyone point to a controlled study, set up the same way (rowers using weights vs rowers adding more rowing) that found the opposite results? My understanding of muscle physiology leads me to expect a conclusion that weights are a poor substitute for rowing, but I'm open to reading studies that show the contrary, and the rational behind them. In the mean time, I'll continue to use my grounded erg as my weight machine, then put it back on slides to make it a rower again Jeff

[old] kwadams · Post by **[old] kwadams** » January 2nd, 2005, 10:55 am

I think this is only my second post here, but I'll give it a shot. Yoda, I'm interested in trying Superslow. Currently, I lift about 5-6 days a week. I do a typical split routine of chest, shoulders and tri's one day, legs the next, and then arms and back after that. I do cardio before I lift--typically I erg before upper body workouts (approx 30 minutes, quite hard) and then spin before leg workouts (again, hard workouts, 30-45+ minutes). I'll also do one long run a week (45-60 minutes) with no lifting after and then I start the aforementioned lifting schedule over again. My weight training is pretty standard stuff--3 sets of 8-10 reps with moderate to heavy weights (although my shoulder has been giving me trouble so I watch it with presses). So, what would you recommend for me to try SS? I have to admit that I gave it a limited try the other day (with bench presses) after I saw your note and I was pretty sore the next day so I guess it works. Do you still recommend a split routine or should I mix it up (full body) and maybe do two lifting sessions a week? Can I still do my cardio on those days or will the SS finish me off? It's important that I do some hard exercise just about everyday as it helps to control my blood sugar (I have Type-2 diabetes), although if I can get the weight training down to one or two days a week, maybe I can have more time for recovery (which I'm probably not getting enough of now). Thanks for any advice. I really enjoy this board and learn a ton every day. Kevin Adams

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 2nd, 2005, 1:26 pm

Yahoo!!! Finally a person with some guts. Willing to take a shot at the old Super Slow, HUh? Let me warn you, regardless of what others will tell you. You are about to enter the most difficult world of training there is. It will test your physical AND mental abilities. First it is important that you select compound exercises. There isn't a need for isolation exercises. It is also important that most of your exercises be on machines. Example; Squats are almost impossible to perform in the SS mode. The reason is just plain old safety. Leg Press, although it isn't the equal to squats as an exercise, it is much safer. And that's the reason. The goal is to take 20 seconds per rep. Find a weight that will only allow you to complete 6 reps. You should be really working hard, very hard to complete the 6th rep. Your breathing needs to be even and controlled. Relax every part of your body that is not in use during the exercises. It will take a few workouts to learn the pace of each movement. Be patience, it will come. When you are about to complete the 6th rep, then raise the weight or resistance for the next workout. You will feel tremendous burning in the body parts being worked. Embrace that pain or burn and continue to push or pull depending on the exercise. Don't rachet the movement. Don't stop at the top or at the bottom of a movement. When the weight stops moving in the middle of an exercise, don't stop pushing, continue to push and breath evenly and the weight will begin to move again. I have small clocks with second sweephands hanging all over the place, so that no matter the exercise, I can see my time for each and every rep. The exercises: Again compound over isolation exercises. I am presently doing the following exercises in my SS program. Horizontal Leg Press, Pullover-semi straight arm, Seated Row, Bench, and reverse pullups. I also stretch after each exercise. I have to be careful with any exercise that involves my shoulders as well since both have just recently been replaced. I just lighten up the resistance a bit to make sure that I'm not going backward in the strength department. Frequency; In the past we've been doing SS once per week to start with, but we've found that by doing a second flushing workout with higher reps and lower weight working the same body parts is helping in recovery. So, I would try one hard workout per week with the flushing workout two to three days afterward. As time passes you will feel a heaviness in your body when doing other things like running, rowing or whatever. This is a signal to you that you need to add another day of rest between workouts. So instead of doing the hard workout every 7 days, move it to 8 days. We have a few clients that only workout every 14-15 days and are still making progress. Cardio; Always do your cardio before your SS workouts. When done to failure SS is going to kick your butt. But the payback is great. It is intense. Very intense. That is why most folks don't use it. If you can hang in there and make it through several months, I believe you'll see the value of SS. Hey, good luck with this. Let us know how you're doing or if you have any questions. There seems to be a number of folks that have a working knowlege of SS on this forum. I'm sure most everyone will be willing to help as much as possible. Or you can email me at wdirv67@msn.com Yoda

[old] starboardrigged1seat · Post by **[old] starboardrigged1seat** » January 2nd, 2005, 2:46 pm

Hey grandslam, I'm pretty familiar with the studies that you're talking about, but I believe that they only deal with a relatively small pool of althetes over a small time...6 to 8 weeks? They don't study the long term performance, longevity, success due to lack of injuries and strength benefits associated with strength training. I would say this though -- if you have a limited amount of time to train, and rowing is your goal, your best performance boosts will be found by rowing, not lifting. If you have a bit more freedom to train the way you want to, and still have time to lift -- go for it, it will only help you.

[old] kwadams · Post by **[old] kwadams** » January 2nd, 2005, 3:30 pm

Thanks for the info, Yoda. I do use a weight machine (Vectra) now, so I'm all set there. Just so I get this straight, do you go from exercise to exercise, eg., bench press to seated row, without any intentional stop/rest or do you stretch after each exercise (ie., you rest a bit)? In addition, I know you said that isolation exercises weren't necessary, but I would think doing things like dumbell shoulder flys, etc. would give you an unbelievable burn. Any thoughts? Lastly, is the "flushing" workout done with SS, too, just using slightly lighter weights or is it done in a traditional manner? I appreciate your help and I'll keep you posted. Kevin

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 2nd, 2005, 5:26 pm

Kevin, I would try to use around 12-15 reps on each exercise when doing flushing. Speed should probably be around 3-4 seconds per rep. All you're trying to do is get a little extra blood into the worked areas to aid in recovery. And just like the hard SS workout, I'd just do one set for each area. I don't beleive there is a problem in doing different exercises on the "flush day" as long as the same muscle groups are worked. If you do SS to failure on each exercise I doubt that you'll want to do the extra little isolation exercises. If you can, more power to you, but I wouldn't do them in the SS mode. I would think that tradtional speed would be fine. I stretch between each exercise. I can't remember who it was, but years ago someone said that you should stretch between each set of a given exercise. I tried it and, for me, it took away from the next set. Since you're only doing one set of each exercise in the SS mode, stretching a bit can't do anything but help. Good luck with this. Yoda (the bionic one)

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 2nd, 2005, 6:13 pm

Yoda, Is there anything you can do SS at home related to pull ups, with no machines and no pull up bar.

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 2nd, 2005, 7:14 pm

Move!!!! Just kidding. I don't know if you have a basement or not. If you do, many times the rafters are exposed. You could do what we used to call "Pinch Pull Ups". You hold on, or pinch the rafters to do the pull up. I can't do them anymore. Not because we don't have a basement, but I just don't have that kind of grip strength anymore. If you have a high table that allows you to hang with your arms straight you could do angled pull ups. They aren't to bad in the SS mode. I think the angled pullups fit rowing better than traditional pullups. But that's just my opinion. I think your best bet would be to go to a sporting goods store and purchase a removeable chinning bar. They run around $10.00. You place them in a door way. And they can be removed after you're finished. If you're going to leave it in place, make sure it's higher than your head. Dollars to donuts, you'll forget it's there and crack your bean. You will have to bend your knees somewhat to perform these, unless you are shorter than I am. I kinda doubt that, though. I'm around 3'-4" tall. Yeah, right. Sorry, I couldn't be more helpful. Yoda

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 2nd, 2005, 7:46 pm

Yoda, Thanks. I might invest in something like that. There's a contraption around $40 that hooks above the doorway, and is higher than the bar you mentioned. I have rigged up a beam above the rafters in the garages, though it's a hassle moving the car in and out to use it. Also, pull ups are hard to do a lot of, unless very strong, and not so conductive to SS. However this article shows a way to develop and do more of them eccentrically. <a href='http://www.dolfzine.com/page244.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.dolfzine.com/page244.htm</a> Also here is an article about Paul Anderson and his method of training, i.e. all day long. <a href='http://www.cbass.com/ANDERSON.HTM' target='_blank'>http://www.cbass.com/ANDERSON.HTM</a>

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 2nd, 2005, 7:57 pm

Another article about pull ups: <a href='http://climbing.com/techtips/sport/tttrain227/' target='_blank'>http://climbing.com/techtips/sport/tttr ... r> <img src='http://climbing.com/techtips/227tttrain-1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 3rd, 2005, 9:07 am

John, Thanks for the articles. Isn't it amazing the variations that can be done with different exercises. I do think that the safest hand position is with the palms facing each other. I met a gentleman several months ago. He was in his seventies. I tried to catch him going up this little mountain trail that I hike several times a week. I couldn't catch him. At the top, we were discussing fitness, as I had remarked that I was trying to catch him, but could not. He told me what he did to keep in shape. He walked a minimum of one hour per day. Every morning, upon rising, he did 3 exercises for 3 sets. The exercises were Squats, pushups, and pullups. Each set was one minute long for one rep. He told me that he has been doing this since he was in his twenties. All of the exercises were with bodyweight. Yoda

[old] Rocket Roy · Post by **[old] Rocket Roy** » January 3rd, 2005, 9:56 am

so are you saying he did 3 pushups and 3 squats and 3 pull ups in 3 mins for each set? ie it takes 1 min to do each pullup?

[old] Chrissy · Post by **[old] Chrissy** » January 3rd, 2005, 9:57 am

IMHO, every athlete is different, and their bodies react in different ways to various types of training. Personally, i find that i get huge strength gains through isolation over from when i used to do full body workouts. I think the idea is that all the of the calories you intake go to your muscle to stimulate growth, so if those calories/protein are being directed to all parts of the body opposed to the arms and back? which muscles are going to have the most energy to lift?? And the bigger lifts will equal to bigger strength, or so i have found so far. I work each body part once a week, and maximum of twice. this i find allows plenty of time to max out the weight on each body part once a week, which will then require much rest ( a week for me) to be able to work that body part again. But heed this as a warning. If you miss what we call ' the wave of strength', then there is a chance that you may not be able to lift as much as you did the previous week. anyways just give each body part 5-7 days rest. If you chose to do this, get back to me or send an email, and share with me the results you achieve. Just remember what works for one athlete might not work for the other. the most valuble piece of information i could give someone, is not to listen to someone else and implement it straight into your plan. Listen by all means. Educate yourself, and more importantly listen to your own body. Enough of this ramble!! better get back to erging!! Regards Chris

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 3rd, 2005, 4:57 pm

Sir Rocket Roy, My newly found friend does those 3 exercises in 3 sets for each exercise. Each set takes 1 minute. In other words, One rep for squat taking 1 minute to complete. One rep for pushups taking 1 minute each and One minute for pullup taking one minute each. He rests 1-2 minutes between each exercise. So, his total actual exercise or work time is 9 minutes. Pretty amazing for an old fart, huh? He told me he eats a lot of beans for energy. And like Clarence Bass, loves peanut butter. Chris, I think you are misunderstanding what I was trying to say. Compound exercises, as I'm sure you know, work large body parts at once. When I said to stay away from Isolation exercises, I meant spending a lot of time working your biceps doing concentration curls would be a waste of time as opposed to working them while perfoming pullups or bent over rowing. Sorry, but I have to disagree with your belief that working out each day with a different body part is an avantage. I beleive that the whole body is impacted each time a person works the body or any part thereof. The brain doesn't say to the deltoids, "Okay guys, I'm going to let you all recovery for the next couple of days while we work the Pecs." I don't beleive that is going to happen. If I focus on working the delts today, and work them hard, they are not going to respond to well when I do pecs the next day. Furthermore, why would a person wish to exercise with resistance training everday when the whole idea, as I understand it, is to be efficient with one's training so that they can paticipate in the sport that they are attempting to improve. In this case rowing. I do agree with you that each person is different and should seek out what works for them. Yoda

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 3rd, 2005, 5:24 pm

Yoda, Very interesting about the fellow in his 70's. Also that he does these EVERY morning. Regarding pull ups, I much favor pull ups to chins. You can get your shoulders and back much easier into pull ups, it is the same style as the rowing motion (hands on top), and chins are more directed to the biceps. Also I don't know why you think chins are safer, as I think pull ups are more safe.