Model C Vs. Model D

[old] vitoal18t · Post by **[old] vitoal18t** » February 23rd, 2006, 4:29 pm

Hello, I am thinking of buying Model D rower, I heard many good reviews, but there were some reviews saying it is a bit "different" from model C and those who rowed a lot on Model C try to stay away from Model D. I never rowed on water, but for a period of one year I was a very active Model C rower at local gym and University. I think it is one of the best work outs and I really enjoyed every minute rowed. I used to row 30 minutes intervals w/ an average 2:00 / 500m pace and sometimes I went for 2000m sprints. Now I want to buy a Model D for my apartment, but I am worried that some differences might annoy me. What people think of that handle? What about general resistance and feel, is it similar to Model C? Also I heard that it is wobly, compared to Model C, but mine will be placed on a carpet so I think that shouldn't be an issue. I live in SF Bay Area, California, I don't know of any places that use Model D, so I want a general feedback from people. If I liked Model C, will I like Model D??

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » February 23rd, 2006, 4:53 pm

You will like the D just fine, it doesn't sound like you had enough time to ingrain too much on the C handle. The D is no more wobbly, at least up until the point where the leg mounts break free from the frame apparently from repeated standing on end and less than gentle handling they receive at our boathouse. (5 of 5 have at least one loose connection point, with the only remedy being to get a new bolt, nut, and washer to hold it together. Not a huge problem, but a pain in the rear. My Model D's at home have no problems at all, but are very well cared for by comparison. Of course you do have to either like, or get used to the Baby Blue color scheme....

The sound is more quiet than the C and the new cog dampening makes it feel a git smoother, but you will get used to those things very quickly, much like getting a new faster computer, it only seems faster for the first day or two.

[old] vitoal18t · Post by **[old] vitoal18t** » February 23rd, 2006, 5:37 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 23 2006, 03:53 PM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>You will like the D just fine, it doesn't sound like you had enough time to ingrain too much on the C handle. The D is no more wobbly, at least up until the point where the leg mounts break free from the frame apparently from repeated standing on end and less than gentle handling they receive at our boathouse. (5 of 5 have at least one loose connection point, with the only remedy being to get a new bolt, nut, and washer to hold it together. Not a huge problem, but a pain in the rear. My Model D's at home have no problems at all, but are very well cared for by comparison. Of course you do have to either like, or get used to the Baby Blue color scheme....

The sound is more quiet than the C and the new cog dampening makes it feel a git smoother, but you will get used to those things very quickly, much like getting a new faster computer, it only seems faster for the first day or two. </td></tr></table> Thank you for the reply! It was most helpful, it sounds like a nice machine and I am sure I'll get used to the new handle. I am not by any means a hardcore rower compared to the people on this board. I plan to use this machine everyday and I am sure it will be money well spent. Thank you! -Vito

[old] c2jonw · Post by **[old] c2jonw** » February 23rd, 2006, 5:39 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(vito @ Feb 23 2006, 08:29 PM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hello, I am thinking of buying Model D rower, I heard many good reviews, but there were some reviews saying it is a bit "different" from model C and those who rowed a lot on Model C try to stay away from Model D. I never rowed on water, but for a period of one year I was a very active Model C rower at local gym and University. I think it is one of the best work outs and I really enjoyed every minute rowed. I used to row 30 minutes intervals w/ an average 2:00 / 500m pace and sometimes I went for 2000m sprints. Now I want to buy a Model D for my apartment, but I am worried that some differences might annoy me. What people think of that handle? What about general resistance and feel, is it similar to Model C? Also I heard that it is wobly, compared to Model C, but mine will be placed on a carpet so I think that shouldn't be an issue. I live in SF Bay Area, California, I don't know of any places that use Model D, so I want a general feedback from people. If I liked Model C, will I like Model D?? </td></tr></table> Hi Vito, The C and D have far more similarities than differences. Same frame and structure, same chain, bungee cord, flywheel, seat, etc. The main differences are: * the PM3 monitor, which is described at: <a href="http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/pm3_intro.asp" target="_blank">http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/pm3_intro.asp</a> * the plastic flywheel housing, which reduces the air noise, and has a slightly different drag factor range. * the new handle, which seems to have been received well, though it may take some getting used to. (the old C handle can be retrofitted) * a revision to the sprocket and the material used on a couple of pulleys that both reduce chain noise and smooth the pull out a bit. * a flashy new color scheme. Finally, check out our Rower Finder at: <a href="http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/rowerfinder.asp" target="_blank">http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/rowerfinder.asp</a> for a location near you that has rowers you can check out. Hope this helps.......JonW

[old] dgivnish · Post by **[old] dgivnish** » February 23rd, 2006, 5:56 pm

Vito - I have a Model D at home and use a Model C where we vacation. The Model D handle is much better in my opinion -- it's hard for me to keep my forearms relaxed with the C. The D is also easy to break apart for storage without a heart monitor receiver, if that's important for you. Good luck Dave G

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » February 23rd, 2006, 5:58 pm

The model D color looks fine to me, though I've not seen one in person. I like the other features too, except for the pm3 monitor. Jon, What are the planned release dates, if any, for an upgrade to the erg or the monitor? I.e. when is it possible a model E or a pm4 will be out?

[old] Rate35 · Post by **[old] Rate35** » February 23rd, 2006, 8:27 pm

the model D in my view is a piece of junk, I hate the monitor, the handle and other things. I have found when I switch from using a model C to a D I tend to develop a bruise on my chest that is from the model d handle. With the model c when you pull a stroke your able to 'hit it' into your chest without any problems but when you do that with a model d it like pinchs your skin and is very frustrating and what happens is that you kinda become hesitant to 'hit it' into your chest and you wont pull as far in a normal, thus minimizing your potential power. I also hate the whole quiet thing of the model d, I like to hear it fly when I m going, its fun lol, I also think the model d looks ugly compared to model c. In short, if you can, go with a model c, you'll be glad you did.

[old] Hal Morgan · Post by **[old] Hal Morgan** » February 23rd, 2006, 10:34 pm

I don't care for the D handle. I just don't. That is not the thing. The thing I noticed is the ergs at work "C"s are well used and limber some are loose and some rattle. The new rower at home is a hard stiff ride. We are talking '67 honda vs '44 harley. I like the D. I am glad I bought the D. I row when I want and Row and row and row no waiters. I do miss the folks in the gym so I go to loosen up a little before heading home to the D. By your harley er... I mean D erg.

[old] c2jonw · Post by **[old] c2jonw** » February 24th, 2006, 12:10 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Rate35 @ Feb 24 2006, 12:27 AM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>the model D in my view is a piece of junk, I hate the monitor, the handle and other things. I have found when I switch from using a model C to a D I tend to develop a bruise on my chest that is from the model d handle. With the model c when you pull a stroke your able to 'hit it' into your chest without any problems but when you do that with a model d it like pinchs your skin and is very frustrating and what happens is that you kinda become hesitant to 'hit it' into your chest and you wont pull as far in a normal, thus minimizing your potential power. I also hate the whole quiet thing of the model d, I like to hear it fly when I m going, its fun lol, I also think the model d looks ugly compared to model c. In short, if you can, go with a model c, you'll be glad you did. </td></tr></table> Whoa, Rate35, sorry to hear you are so disenchanted with the D, but I"ll point out what I said before: other than the changes mentioned, the D is structurally the same as the C, so I'm not sure what you are referring to when you call the D "junk". Granted the PM3 is different from the PM2 and takes a bit of getting used to, but there is no question it is a more technologically advanced unit with far more power and features. I'm truly curious as to what you don't like about it. And the handle- well, bottom line is you can retrofit back to the wooden C handle, but if you compare the two you might notice that the hand areas on the D handle are actually offset from the middle in such a way that actually allows you to get your hands further into or past your body than the straight C handle. I really don't know why the D handle is pinching you, because I row the same way you do, at least until I get a stomach ache. I'd take a close look at it for cracks or rough spots. No rant or offense meant here, just interested in some details about your dissatisfaction.......JonW@C2

[old] ancho · Post by **[old] ancho** » February 24th, 2006, 6:36 am

- I had most problems getting used to the handle, for first time erging I had problems with blisters, but now it's OK. - I really love the PM3 features, rowpro is also very recomendable! - Can't tell that much about the noise, because I used to row in the gym, and now at home it seems loud enough... - First I felt much more vibrations as on the model C, I solved it setting up the erg on some gym mats. - Initially, for me the model D felt "slower", it took me some time to get to my normal cruising speed, but now I have been able to set some PBs with the new erg, so I suppose it's just a subjective matter. All in all, i think you're gonna love (and hate) your erg. Have fun!

[old] Rate35 · Post by **[old] Rate35** » February 24th, 2006, 7:39 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(c2jonw @ Feb 23 2006, 11:10 PM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Rate35 @ Feb 24 2006, 12:27 AM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>the model D in my view is a piece of junk, I hate the monitor, the handle and other things. I have found when I switch from using a model C to a D I tend to develop a bruise on my chest that is from the model d handle. With the model c when you pull a stroke your able to 'hit it' into your chest without any problems but when you do that with a model d it like pinchs your skin and is very frustrating and what happens is that you kinda become hesitant to 'hit it' into your chest and you wont pull as far in a normal, thus minimizing your potential power. I also hate the whole quiet thing of the model d, I like to hear it fly when I m going, its fun lol, I also think the model d looks ugly compared to model c. In short, if you can, go with a model c, you'll be glad you did. </td></tr></table> Whoa, Rate35, sorry to hear you are so disenchanted with the D, but I"ll point out what I said before: other than the changes mentioned, the D is structurally the same as the C, so I'm not sure what you are referring to when you call the D "junk". Granted the PM3 is different from the PM2 and takes a bit of getting used to, but there is no question it is a more technologically advanced unit with far more power and features. I'm truly curious as to what you don't like about it. And the handle- well, bottom line is you can retrofit back to the wooden C handle, but if you compare the two you might notice that the hand areas on the D handle are actually offset from the middle in such a way that actually allows you to get your hands further into or past your body than the straight C handle. I really don't know why the D handle is pinching you, because I row the same way you do, at least until I get a stomach ache. I'd take a close look at it for cracks or rough spots. No rant or offense meant here, just interested in some details about your dissatisfaction.......JonW@C2 </td></tr></table> All I meant was that I just dont like the model d in any aspect, I didnt mean for you to inerpet junk in the way you did, I didnt meant to go on a rant either. Getting to what I said I just dont like the model d in general. Dont get me wrong the new features in it are nice and what now but I dont care for them. The pinching something is not something I only have, everyone in my highschool crew has them and one of the coaches who rows in university says the same thing. We use model c's at school majority of the time (we have 16 or 17 ergs, 3 of them model d, rest c) and no body ever wants to use the model d's but someone always gets stuck with them. Also when we practice at a university to make us of there tank we are stuck all on model d's and after it everyones chest looks a little more bruised. I ve talked to other people from other schools and they all same the same thing. The other thing that annoys me about the model d I dont know maybe its more of a mental thing but I find when I set the damper to 4 or 5 on the model c and do that on the model d it feels more like a 6 or 7 would on c. Its just my preference, both are good tools just I personally dont like the model d in any way.

[old] Ray79 · Post by **[old] Ray79** » February 24th, 2006, 7:55 am

Rate 35, If you set the "drag factor" (not damper level) on the 2 machines to be the same then they should feel the same. Machines drag factors can vary from machine to machine for a number of reasons. Dirty flywheel, air circulation in the room etc, can all affect the drag factor, that is why you set the drag factor and not the damper level. As for hitting you chest with the handle, I would think that your coach should be more concerned with this, because you should ideally not draw through so that you hit you sternum. This is wasted energy, and wont help your recovery. Your hands need to sweep round the turn in a fluid motion, by hitting you are stopping your hands and breaking up the fluidity of the stroke. I am not saying that you should not finish firmly, but this is possible by a better connection through the middle of the stroke utilising legs body and then arms to accelerate the flywheel fully before the finish. All the work should be done before you get to the finish and so there should be no need to hit the handle of your chest. Lets be clear - I am not critising, but I have used both models and whilst the feel of the handle is different I think it gives you a much better hand position in relation to OTW rowing (10-12 inches apart) than the C handle. I dont really notice the noise because I listen to music when I erg unless doing a test.

[old] akit110 · Post by **[old] akit110** » February 24th, 2006, 1:17 pm

I alternate between using a Model C at home and a Model D at the gym at work. They are more alike than different. So far I haven't felt deprived by having the C. Aesthetically, I prefer the black and gray colors of the C. The D is significantly quieter which is nice but the noise it does make is less pleasant to my ears. The PM3 monitor has much more features but I still end up using the display mode that best mimics my C. The C handle gives me slightly less problems with my elbows than the D handle. I like the fact that I can adjust the drag on the C with my feet strapped. For me to buy the next generation of C2 rower, I would have to see something revolutionary rather than evolutionary since I tend to be from the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' school.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » February 24th, 2006, 3:39 pm

I'll take my model D over the model Cs I've used at ergattas and in clubs. The PM3 has more functionality, log card feature is awesome, machine is quieter, and the damper setting just seems more solid and granular (no "clicks") based on the materials used for the fan housing. As far as "pinching" goes, have never experienced this, nor have I heard anyone else mention it until now. I'm not sure I have a preference in handles (and they can always be changed out), but I do find the model C handle a bit too short ... prefer to grip further apart which is possible with the D handle.

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » February 24th, 2006, 4:00 pm

I have an upgraded model C. I much prefer the D handle and find that both my hands are more comfortable and I can finish better with my arms and lats with that extra inch of reach. I also definitely prefer the PM3, particularly the force curve feature. Before I had rowpro, I also really liked the log card (for memory and recall of past rows) and the pace boat. With rowpro, the differences between a PM2 and PM3 don't matter so much, so that is why I think for an upgrade, rowpro is a much better way to spend one's money.

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