Dwyane Adams - Fake Or Real?

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Jan 18 2006, 09:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Jan 18 2006, 09:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Currently it's tenth place or better that needs a C2 verification code so for HWT 40-49 M that's 20:52.2 (LWT 40-49 M it's 22:39.4). <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Citroen - I understand that (and it seems a reasonable measure, though I'd probably make it top 5). But it's not based on anything in particular - those 10 times could be awful, or the top 100 could all be at the limit of human ability. That's part of why this whole thing is nonsense; C2 have made a fair attempt at keeping the ranking 'honest', but at least part of that is to prevent the sort of typos that have appeared every year (speaking from experience - I've personally read all the best times for every age/weight/gender from 13 up since it was introduced!). Ultimately if you want to game the system you can do, as you've illustrated, and requiring proof can't change that.<br /><br />Re-reading that it sounds like I'm arguing with you - that's not my intention, I'm using your comments as a springboard for a rant <br /><br />Cheers, Paul

[[old] Hal Morgan]

I swear it!<br /><br />

[[old] slo_boat]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 18 2006, 06:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 06:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thank you for your comments. They will be taken on board.<br /><br />I take it that you too are not in the top 3 ranking list for your age cat?<br />Bit of a pattern forming here. Name callers and the people not in the top 3 ranking places are the ones that get all aggressive. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No. I'm not in the top three in the rankings. I also do not care. My competition is with myself. It matters little whether anyone else competes. It’s a funny thing that you are so concerned about the rankings. That tells me that while you might have the drive to be better than someone else, you lack the drive to be the best. Relying on comparisons to others for your motivation is a path to mediocrity not to being the best.<br /><br />I have had the privilege to know several individuals who are among the best in the world at what they do. It is my experience that true champions seek to meet the higher standard of being the best that they can be and not the lower standard of simply being better than others.<br /><br />You should be careful making assumptions about other people and their motivations. This is something else that you would know if you understood bushido. You thought it was all about kicking and punching didn’t you?<br /><br />You initiated a battle. Sadly you know nothing about the field of battle. You appear to know very little about the people you have chosen as opponents. You know nothing about alliances. You began without a clearly defined objective. You quickly lost control. You had an opportunity to withdraw gracefully and return to the field another time. Instead you have continued gracelessly.<br /><br />This is not the way of the warrior. It is the way of the loser. Admit that were wrong. Admit that you began badly. Accept responsibility for the way that you presented yourself. Apologize for your pettiness and your insulting behavior. If you are serious about wanting to improve the record keeping system and the rankings, then accept responsibility for that as well. Stop whining because somebody else ought to do something. Instead be the somebody that gets it done.<br />

[[old] seat5]

<!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Jan 19 2006, 02:08 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Jan 19 2006, 02:08 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulH+Jan 19 2006, 02:00 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulH @ Jan 19 2006, 02:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me put it another way; Presumably the person who did 18:57.2 would have to provide evidence as well, because that too must be a world class time.  Ditto the person who did 18:57.3.  So what time ceases to be world class?  19:00.0? 19:15.8? 21.54.8? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Currently it's tenth place or better that needs a C2 verification code so for HWT 40-49 M that's 20:52.2 (LWT 40-49 M it's 22:39.4). <br /> </td></tr></table><br />It's 10th place for the C2 verification code. But if the time is a top 3 time--you can be put in the right order on the ranking list, but won't get the official #1 even if it 's the fastest posted time, unless you have the PM3 IND_V verification. There are two different levels of this verification---top 10 and top 3. The top 3 folks have to prove the authenticity of their row with witness or PM3 verification. I was excited that the PM3 did the job and now I feel let down by the equipment if it really doesn't "prove" that you did the whole piece without stopping. <br /><br />I suppose it is silly of me to care whether anyone believes my posted times or not, and for me to care whether people believe in Dwayne's, or Ranger's, or whoever else's they don't feel like believing this week-- and even sillier that it rankled me to have times just sitting there with no numbers enough to spend $180 for the PM3, because this whole activity is sort of silly in the first place--sitting in one place killing yourself to make a little computer thingy say a bigger number or a faster time. But when you work hard to accomplish it, it's kind of crumby when people doubt your honest effort. And that's why I believe in Dwayne's times, and everyone else's, for that matter.<br /><br />Chad, if you don't want to participate in the rankings because you think some other people are dishonest, that's your perogative. I dare say no one will lose any sleep over your choosing to not post your times on the rankings! Most of us enjoy the rankings and find the achievements of others very inspiring. I hope C2 fixes the loophole in the PM3, because then it's a trustworthy "proof", at least to me. You can always choose disregard the top times that don't have the IND_V, after they fix it.<br /><br />

[[old] chickenlegs]

why can't we all just get along???<br /><br />..and in that spirit, let's start with some points we can all agree on:<br /><br />1. d.adams posted time of 5'47" is EXTRAORDINARY, and i do mean it in upper case letters. if you know what the fastest guys around pull, and i mean those guys in their physical prime who have moved up the ranks by years of hard work, one track minds and genetic predisposition (they are usually over 1.90 m) and can afford to train full time...yes i mean national team members, who are well under 40, are as big or bigger than adams, train more (in olympic years that's all they do!), have rowed for more years...and still cannot even get close to his posted 5'47". perti karpinnen, quite possibly the greatest rower of modern times, rowed in his early 40s a 5'53".<br /><br />2. d.adams in competition has never broken 7' (check this thread to find exact times and locations). EXTRAORDINARY. one of his fast 6 km times indicates that he can hold 1:36 for 6 km, but in a 2 km race he has not been able to keep it under 1:45. this is at least as extraordinary as the point 1 above. for example, i can hold 1:42 for 6 km and if i were to row 2 km at 9 splits higher i would not even break a sweat. i am not bragging, just stating a fact.<br /><br /><br /><br />

[[old] Chad Williams]

<!--QuoteBegin-chickenlegs+Jan 19 2006, 12:57 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(chickenlegs @ Jan 19 2006, 12:57 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why can't we all just get along???<br /><br />..and in that spirit, let's start with some points we can all agree on:<br /><br />1. d.adams posted time of 5'47" is EXTRAORDINARY, and i do mean it in upper case letters. if you know what the fastest guys around pull, and i mean those guys in their physical prime who have moved up the ranks by years of hard work, one track minds and genetic predisposition (they are usually over 1.90 m) and can afford to train full time...yes i mean national team members, who are well under 40, are as big or bigger than adams, train more (in olympic years that's all they do!), have rowed for more years...and still cannot even get close to his posted 5'47". perti karpinnen, quite possibly the greatest rower of modern times, rowed in his early 40s a 5'53".<br /><br />2. d.adams in competition has never broken 7' (check this thread to find exact times and locations). EXTRAORDINARY. one of his fast 6 km times indicates that he can hold 1:36 for 6 km, but in a 2 km race he has not been able to keep it under 1:45. this is at least as extraordinary as the point 1 above. for example, i can hold 1:42 for 6 km and if i were to row 2 km at 9 splits higher i would not even break a sweat. i am not bragging, just stating a fact. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I am going to turn the other check with regards to slo_boat and Porkchop as they are adding nothing to the topic apart from trying to pick a fight.<br /><br />Chickenlegs, a point well made.<br /><br />Let’s make this a new starting point. Let’s see who disagrees with chickens legs above statement.<br />

[[old] Chad Williams]

<!--QuoteBegin-seat5+Jan 18 2006, 11:10 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(seat5 @ Jan 18 2006, 11:10 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Chad, if you don't want to participate in the rankings because you think some other people are dishonest, that's your perogative. [right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have never said people are dishonest; please don’t put words in my mouth. I said that the top 3 times need proof required. If you have done the row and have proof to back it up then how can you be dishonest about it.<br /><br />Example-<br />I have the stroke data for this 5.49.0 2000m I rowed this morning – That’s good proof!!<br /><br />My mate saw me do it! – That’s not what I call proof<br /><br />

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-Yukon John+Jan 18 2006, 11:58 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Jan 18 2006, 11:58 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The very nature of this thread is demeaning and insulting. People can do what they want, but I say "let this thread die." It is serving no purpose, that I can see, and should R.I.P. The best way to stop someone who won't listen to reason (i.e. can't take a clue) is to not respond. This has been suggested elsewhere when someone isn't working toward's the better good of our sport and community. I suggest it be applied here. "I do solemnly swear that I will not post or read this thread again ." Any other takers? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />No I like just the opposite. I must be possible to find proof for the adams rows. If not than I have to say he is a con man. I don,t believe that now but I no proof can be found ......................

[[old] Chad Williams]

Sorry guys, I have spent hours and hours searching rowing magazines, internet rowing sites etc and I can not find anything at all that confirms Dwayne’s times.<br /><br />All the public races he has been in have proved that can not row a 2000 in under 7 minutes in competition.<br />If you know of a public race that Dwayne has rowed faster in then please post the information for all to see.<br /><br />He has been part of the USIRT, but has either DNS, DNF or pulled a score that has never been under 7 minutes.<br /><br />All of the above are great places to prove a rowing score, look at all the people that would be there to witness it; the media would be there to report on it. How could anybody ever question it?<br /><br />But we don’t want to gain notoriety for that do we?<br />Lets do it another way, lets post times on a ranking system where having no proof if acceptable to some people, based on the fact that they must be quick because they have said they are on a number of occasions and have posted times to back these claims up, claims that have no proof, by saying something like “but my mate saw me row it”.<br /><br />If Dwayne had rowed a sub 6 at BIRC, Started at EIRC, or even pulled a descent score to compare to his on-line un-proven scores then what would I have to complain about.<br /><br />All Dwayne has to do is to row at a public event, based on his CTC score of the last 2 months he should be able to pull a 2000m score of well under 6 minutes, but he won’t.<br /><br />Does this not ring alarm bells in any of you?

[[old] Delilah]

Hi Tom,<br />I am picking up this thread here in the UK so I guess middle of the night for you guys 'over the pond'.<br />I said in my earlier post that (it appears to me) the chances of a 40 year-old six minute(ish) rower also being engaged in some deep plot to make himself world number one and record holder seem vanishingly small. I mean there can't be many others in the category so for one to also be some deranged Walter Mitty character seems impossible. So all I need to be 'on side' is to have any row aroundn the six minute mark verified. <br />However, I am intrigued to know exactly what USIRA is. I am unable to separate C2 and USIRA so who exactly are the officials?<br />Anyway it seems likely that C2 would be able to tell us who the official was and to give us some bone fides for the man. Ideally the man in question willl be found and persuaded ot speak out.<br />I am not in Dwaynes category by either age or class and whilst I accept that it might seem pitiful to some I would like to see incontrovertible evidence for a row that claims to eclipse the time of one of the worlds great rowers. Currently the time is the greatest ever and whether C2 (USIRA) recognises the record or not it will always be considered the record by those who believe. <br />Speaking personally I want to believe but I have to say there are many glaring improbablities in this whole evidence chain.<br />D

[[old] hjs]

I do have a Question. Does anybody now any other ergers on the raking lists who never performes on races?<br />I think it will be hard to find one. And if you do, his or her rankings are also Questionable.

[[old] Daren C]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 19 2006, 06:43 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 19 2006, 06:43 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Example-<br />I have the stroke data for this 5.49.0 2000m I rowed this morning – That’s good proof!!<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />How so? Stroke data files from e-Row and .row files from RowPro are plain old text files. Anyone with a copy of Notepad can forge one. It's easy enough to edit the RowPro Access database and insert or change data there, too, or to get a forged row onto a PM3 LogCard.<br /><br />As someone has already noted, the PM3 verification code is also no proof of a row that took place as a single piece, rather than intervals.<br /><br />None of the above are any real use as proof, unless you just "want to believe"; in which case, it's really little different from taking Dwayne's claims at face value.<br /><br />The best form of proof is probably to do the performance in front of trusted independent witnesses, preferably at an international televised event. Even then, we could all be hoodwinked if anyone cared enough to do it.<br /><br />

[[old] Daren C]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 19 2006, 08:54 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 19 2006, 08:54 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry guys, I have spent hours and hours searching<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hehe, well whatever floats your boat, I suppose. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 19 2006, 08:54 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 19 2006, 08:54 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All the public races he has been in have proved that can not row a 2000 in under 7 minutes in competition. </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, no they haven't. They haven't proven that he can't. The most they've shown is that he hasn't. That's an entirely different thing.<br />

[[old] Ericr]

<!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Jan 19 2006, 04:09 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Jan 19 2006, 04:09 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do have a Question.  Does anybody now any other ergers on the raking lists who never performes on races?<br />I think it will be hard to find one. And if you do, his or her rankings are also Questionable. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Rod Freed, his long distance performances have been questioned on this forum. He has not ranked since 2003 I believe.<br />

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ericr+Jan 19 2006, 10:25 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ericr @ Jan 19 2006, 10:25 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Jan 19 2006, 04:09 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Jan 19 2006, 04:09 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do have a Question.  Does anybody now any other ergers on the raking lists who never performes on races?<br />I think it will be hard to find one. And if you do, his or her rankings are also Questionable. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Rod Freed, his long distance performances have been questioned on this forum. He has not ranked since 2003 I believe. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Yes, true.<br /><br />Also his 2 k is relative slow. And as you are saying, his performances are also questioned.<br />