The Trend That Is Reduced Df

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 2nd, 2005, 5:29 am

At this point I assume if you want to go faster the only way (without sacrificing drive length or technique) is to raise the DF. When we do this initially we find our rate drops as we are not strong enough to cope with the extra load at the catch and the need to accelerate the fan. Then we train and get stronger till we get our rate back up to the 'max' and we have a new 2k time ..... this process continues of raising the DF and getting stronger till we reach a physiological limit where our energy supply systems just cant cope / sustain the increases / improvements any longer. Now we have reach our max DF that we can cope with - the ideal?<br /><br /><br />If you can row at a given drag of let's say 100 with pace 20 at 250 watts. you should be able to row at pace 30 with the same strokepower so without changing the drag you could increas you totaal power to 30/22 x 250 = 375.<br />en rates higher then 30 al also possible. Only if you want to go rally fast you have to increes the drag. do the math for 1.20 pace for instance.<br /><br />compare it with cycling. You don,t need a high gearing to go fast. Armstrong goes very fast with low gearing. And thus high rotationspeed.

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » December 2nd, 2005, 9:27 am

I've discovered that if the drag is zero, I can't catch up with the flywheel; and that I can't move it if the drag is infinite.<br />Think I'll stick it somewhere in the middle.

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 2nd, 2005, 9:48 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Dec 2 2005, 02:27 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I've discovered that if the drag is zero, I can't catch up with the flywheel; and that I can't move it if the drag is infinite.<br />Think I'll stick it somewhere in the middle. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />hmmm both are not possible

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 2nd, 2005, 10:42 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 2 2005, 12:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Paul in your opinion should a person drop the DF way down and train their co-ordination to the max - so that they eventually reach a point where the stroke cycle is as short as possible (high spm) without reducing drive length or sacrificing technique.. At this max spm and for the given DF you will row a 2k in 'x' time.<br /><br />At this point I assume if you want to go faster the only way (without sacrificing drive length or technique) is to raise the DF. When we do this initially we find our rate drops as we are not strong enough to cope with the extra load at the catch and the need to accelerate the fan. Then we train and get stronger till we get our rate back up to the 'max' and we have a new 2k time ..... this process continues of raising the DF and getting stronger till we reach a physiological limit where our energy supply systems just cant cope / sustain the increases / improvements any longer. Now we have reach our max DF that we can cope with - the ideal?<br /><br />Does any of this crap make sense <br /><br />George <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'd certainly recommend going to the lower DF's in the range of the C2 scale. I consider the range from 105-115 to be sufficient for the vast majority of folks, say people between 6'5" 230lbs to 5'5" 120lbs. The really high range of the C2 simply allows the machine to be in institutional use (no cleaning) and still have these DF's available. Conversely, mucking up the intake to go to DF's below the minimum of where a new machine would go is the same thinking as changing your medication dosage based on the theory of "if some is good, more is better", which of course doesn't work. There are in fact "correct dosages", and in this case it happens to be how much distance (virtual boat) is covered on the drive and Ratio.<br /><br />Strangely enough, it's all a bit non-intuitive, "taller stronger" would be at the lower end and "shorter weaker" at the higher end of the DF range. Remember, higher DF's don't mean the machine is "harder" it only means that the flywheel will be moving slower and giving more credit per rev, the person on the machine is in charge of how "hard" they are driving.<br /><br />The only time to raise the DF is when you have become strong enough that you are spinning the flywheel so fast that there is not enough time on the drive and you determine that you could sustain the same force for a bit longer (with a bit less recovery time). I.e. say you have determined that a SR=35 is your max, there will be an upper limit as to pace at that rate and a particular Df (impossible to say what it is, but it exists), if you think you have reached that limit, then bumping the Df by +5 will push that limit a bit faster just so long as you have the additional endurance to handle it.<br /><br />Any help?

[old] george nz · Post by **[old] george nz** » December 2nd, 2005, 3:25 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 3 2005, 03:42 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />The only time to raise the DF is when you have become strong enough that you are spinning the flywheel so fast that there is not enough time on the drive and you determine that you could sustain the same force for a bit longer (with a bit less recovery time). I.e. say you have determined that a SR=35 is your max, there will be an upper limit as to pace at that rate and a particular Df (impossible to say what it is, but it exists), if you think you have reached that limit, then bumping the Df by +5 will push that limit a bit faster just so long as you have the additional endurance to handle it.<br /><br />Any help? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Lots of help - and this final paragraph is essentially what I was trying to say in my last ramble, tho a bit more lucidly <br /><br />I think a possible mistake I have made is in the past is dropping the drag just a little and thus often not noticing the difference and so going back up again. What I need to do to ensure a 'real' change in training effect would be to drop it as you say down to 115 or so and then perservere with the 'strange' feelings till my stroke becomes efficient at that DF ..... how long does it take to habituate a stroke <br /><br />Tks George<br />

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 2nd, 2005, 4:12 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 2 2005, 11:25 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What I need to do to ensure a 'real' change in training effect would be to drop it as you say down to 115 or so and then perservere with the 'strange' feelings till my stroke becomes efficient at that DF ..... how long does it take to habituate a stroke <br /><br />Tks George <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'd suggest moving to 105, you are a bit taller than me so should have no problem with managing with the same DF. Most of the "strange feelings" slip away as you realize that you can go ahead and drive hard, even with a fast moving flywheel. I had thought at one point that maximal peak force would be higher at higher DF's but have found that is not the case at all once we are comfortable at the lower DF's.<br /><br />How long for a habit to take hold?<br />Bad habits - Instantaneously. (Not really, but it seems that way.)<br />Good Habits - 10,000 consectutive correct repetitions. Which doesn't sound too bad until we find that the average person can stay singularly focused for about 8 consecutive strokes.<br /><br />

[old] DougB · Post by **[old] DougB** » December 2nd, 2005, 4:22 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The only time to raise the DF is when you have become strong enough that you are spinning the flywheel so fast that there is not enough time on the drive and you determine that you could sustain the same force for a bit longer (with a bit less recovery time). I.e. say you have determined that a SR=35 is your max, there will be an upper limit as to pace at that rate and a particular Df (impossible to say what it is, but it exists), if you think you have reached that limit, then bumping the Df by +5 will push that limit a bit faster just so long as you have the additional endurance to handle it.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul - this reminds me of something I've been thinking about. It seems that there's a choice between rowing at a low drag factor, with a rapid acceleration and long recovery, and rowing at a high drag factor, with a slower acceleration and short recovery.<br /><br />Suppose a rower (like myself) has lots of endurance but not as much strength. Wouldn't the better choice be the high drag factor? That's closer to rowing at a continuous effort with the same force, versus rowing lots of 1-second intervals (or so) with rest in between. I think that the rapid acceleration at low drag factors invokes fast-twitch muscles (and the only ones of those I have are in my eyelids!) and tires them out quicker. For training this might be the intended effect, but for racing I would think not.<br /><br />It's kind of like choosing the fastest way to run up a mountain. I'd probably choose a slow jog the whole way instead of running hard, resting, and repeating that the whole way up.<br /><br />What are your thoughts on this idea?<br /><br />(By the way I've been traing at DF 110 for a long time now.)<br />

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 2nd, 2005, 5:16 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DougB @ Dec 2 2005, 12:22 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The only time to raise the DF is when you have become strong enough that you are spinning the flywheel so fast that there is not enough time on the drive and you determine that you could sustain the same force for a bit longer (with a bit less recovery time). I.e. say you have determined that a SR=35 is your max, there will be an upper limit as to pace at that rate and a particular Df (impossible to say what it is, but it exists), if you think you have reached that limit, then bumping the Df by +5 will push that limit a bit faster just so long as you have the additional endurance to handle it.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul - this reminds me of something I've been thinking about. It seems that there's a choice between rowing at a low drag factor, with a rapid acceleration and long recovery, and rowing at a high drag factor, with a slower acceleration and short recovery.<br /><br />Suppose a rower (like myself) has lots of endurance but not as much strength. Wouldn't the better choice be the high drag factor? That's closer to rowing at a continuous effort with the same force, versus rowing lots of 1-second intervals (or so) with rest in between. I think that the rapid acceleration at low drag factors invokes fast-twitch muscles (and the only ones of those I have are in my eyelids!) and tires them out quicker. For training this might be the intended effect, but for racing I would think not.<br /><br />It's kind of like choosing the fastest way to run up a mountain. I'd probably choose a slow jog the whole way instead of running hard, resting, and repeating that the whole way up.<br /><br />What are your thoughts on this idea?<br /><br />(By the way I've been traing at DF 110 for a long time now.) <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Excellent thinking! I wouldn't exactly characterize you as a "wilting flower" on the strength side of things, but you do certainly appear to be stronger on the endurance side of the scales. Keep in mind that a mere 25cm (virtual boat travel) on each stroke would be a new world record in your class (6:13.6 to be exact), so even that small difference is not insignificant.<br /><br />This is where I go into "Mr. Miyagi" mode (Wax on - Wax off Danielsan) to illustrate that what you do in training is to create the skills needed when racing, even though it's not the same thing that you are going to do when racing.<br /><br />Your training at DF110 should be training you to increase your quickness and peak force capabilities so that you could potentially race at a higher DF, stay under the peak force that will build lactate rapidly, and produce a faster pace by compressing your ratio to under 1:2. This of course would require some conditioning coming up on competition season. This is the same thing we go through after indoor training all winter and then getting back into a boat. If we set up the Erg to have the same drive time as we had in the boat, we will be too sluggish to catch the boat after several months of creating that habit, and it will be very difficult to regain the quickness in the boat due to having so many other things to think about. Essentially what I try to train over the winter is to be maintaining the quickness that is required to move the boat at fast speeds, realizing that the first few weeks in the boat are going to be very tough due to the longer drive times involved. My mind is busy at work trying to figure out how to make the Erg more like being in a boat to eliminate this difference, hopefully in the near future something will work out.<br /><br />Mel Harbour described what he called the "complex ergo" some time ago, and this would be great training to see how the DF effects perceived effort and pace. The idea is to row a series of shortish (300-500m) intervals at a tough steady state paces while alternating the DF from High to Low. With the PM3 (or ErgMonitor) the data to pay specific attention to is the required amplitude of the force profile for equal paces. Typically, it will seem easier to get a fast pace at the higher DF and the goal is to make sure to duplicate the faster pace when the DF is dropped. Use most of the DF range that is available and also a bit of caution on the high DF's to make sure to avoid "shock loading" types of injuries. Most will note that even when trying to drive "slowly" force onset is still quite rapid at high DF's. I'd draw a parallel here with the golf swing, "swing easier to hit the ball farther."

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 2nd, 2005, 6:05 pm

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 2nd, 2005, 6:20 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 2 2005, 02:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><img src='http://blogs.sun.com/roller/images/smileys/sleep.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yeah, pretty boring stuff. (yet you couldn't stay away) Please feel free to liven things up with your unique perspective.<br /><br />I see you are now representing yourself as a "fitness life coach" on the UK forum, along with doing "real estate" and "public speaking". Where exactly are these "public speeches" being done?<br /><br />"Batter up!"

[old] george nz · Post by **[old] george nz** » December 2nd, 2005, 8:04 pm

Hi Paul,<br /><br />did 10k this morning and dropped the drag down seemed to fluctuate around the 109 range and so will try going a bit lower. Just kept the stroke rate constant at 20spm on this session and had 2k splits of approx:<br />2:00<br />1:58<br />1:56<br />1:54<br />2:00<br /><br />Feelings were - the wheel keeps spinning nicely, concentrate on the leg speed (to easy to apply force with the arms to compensate), dont open the back to early, stay smooth - and finally "this will take getting used to"<br /><br />I am off tomorrow but will give the 105 a go in Monday.<br /><br />cheers George<br /><br />ps Doug thanks for your post it made a lot of sense

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 4th, 2005, 8:17 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 1 2005, 06:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>George,<br /><br />Why not work within that range of 135 to 120.<br /><br />This way you will be used to using any of the DF's in that range.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Great advice! Thanks!<br />

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 4th, 2005, 8:25 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 4 2005, 04:17 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 1 2005, 06:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>George,<br /><br />Why not work within that range of 135 to 120.<br /><br />This way you will be used to using any of the DF's in that range.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Great advice! Thanks! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John thanking himself for advice?!!?! This is a new one.

[old] tjod · Post by **[old] tjod** » December 4th, 2005, 8:27 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 4 2005, 04:25 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 4 2005, 04:17 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 1 2005, 06:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>George,<br /><br />Why not work within that range of 135 to 120.<br /><br />This way you will be used to using any of the DF's in that range.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Great advice! Thanks! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John thanking himself for advice?!!?! This is a new one. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Is that billable?

[old] Citroen · Post by **[old] Citroen** » December 10th, 2005, 1:53 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tjod @ Dec 5 2005, 12:27 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 4 2005, 04:25 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 4 2005, 04:17 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 1 2005, 06:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>George,<br /><br />Why not work within that range of 135 to 120.<br /><br />This way you will be used to using any of the DF's in that range.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Great advice! Thanks! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John thanking himself for advice?!!?! This is a new one. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Is that billable? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Maybe.<br />It's certainly symptomatic of JR's schizophrenia (I've often seen him replying to his own items in that way).

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The Trend That Is Reduced Df

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