New Business Working Around The Clock!

[old] lowwall · Post by **[old] lowwall** » October 27th, 2005, 3:49 pm

It has always seemed to me that C2 made the erg for rowers first and foremost, with any other sales an afterthought. Here's something I wrote on the old forum back on 2/7/03 when c2bill was asking about marketing ideas: "I have some [marketing] suggestions from the perspective of a non-rower, which is, after all, who you are going to have to go after to increase sales.... [S]tep up your efforts to get people to use the machines in fitness clubs, apartment and hotel fitness centers and school gyms. The cheap way to do this is with posters and handouts that show proper technique (to get management to put them up) and also emphasize the freebies and online logging, a quick note on cleaning would be a good idea too (include detailed maintenance instructions and a cleaning kit in the package for management). You also might want to give a small prize for the first 100k or so to get them hooked - 1 million meters seems impossible to someone who has just struggled through their first 20 minute workout. But before you do that, you need to make a few changes to the website to encourage non-rowers to make the plunge. Examples follow. First, you've got to give the option for people to begin their average on any day, not just May 1. Think how discouraging it must be for people who want to work off that holiday fat to log their first 5k in January and find that they don't even register on the honor board. Also, allow the logging of (and sorting by) calories. Non rowers don't care a bit about meters, it's calories they are after. I have never seen an erg in a fitness center in the U.S. set to anything other than the calories display." The above still holds, although C2 has made one great leap forward, the Model D has a sticker on it that actually shows proper technique and gives their web address! Unfortunately, they have actually moved backwards in the display of calories. The PM3 has so many display options, the casual user might miss the calorie display completely. Worse, the PM3 logcard doesn't even display calories and you still can't log them. c2bill - while you work on adding calories and "choose your start day" averaging to the logbook, here's a marketing idea that would cost almost nothing. Give those Model D stickers to anyone who volunteers to stick them on a shared Model B or C somewhere. It also wouldn't hurt incorporate basic maintenance instructions (wipe rail and rollers, lube chain) on the sticker.

[old] Alissa · Post by **[old] Alissa** » October 27th, 2005, 4:36 pm

There have been a number of interesting thoughts here and I thought I’d try to further the conversation on several of them: 1. Comparable companies : Akit110 suggests Nordictrack’s efforts to expand as a cautionary tale, and I think there are lessons to be learned, but I don’t think the lesson is “don’t do anything but what you’re doing”—I think it’s more along the line of if you try to be a “treadmill” you’ll get treated like a treadmill—so don’t do that. Here’s another company that might be examined as a possible model: <a href='http://www.pilates.com/siteguide.html' target='_blank'>Balanced Body Inc.</a>, which produces equipment for Pilates (note that I've linked to their site map, which provides lots of helpful "navigation info"--nothing comparable seems to be available on the C2 site). While Nordictrack didn’t develop its “smaller but loyal cadre of enthusiasts”, Balanced Body <a href='http://www.pilates.com/company.html' target='_blank'>did</a>. Like C2, Balanced Body produces specialized equipment which at the time they started was for a very small niche-group of users. While pilates is everywhere now, it certainly wasn’t in the ’70’s when Balanced Body (then-known as Current Concepts) started making and selling equipment. Like C2, they designed improved equipment. But in addition to direct sales they allowed sales through pilates studio/dealers. This inspires those studios to sell as well as use equipment themselves. Their pricing policy, as stated on their website is generally similar to C2s: <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>“Our pricing policy is simple and straightforward. We offer beautifully crafted equipment at very reasonable prices. We don’t offer inflated “retail“ pricing in order to give “discounts.” And we don’t price our equipment as stripped-down models with add-ons at every turn. We include all the features most people will need, without extra cost. For example, when you purchase our Studio Reformer, you’ll get a sitting box, a padded footbar, a built-in standing platform and a fifth spring – all included. Plus, your Reformer is built from Rock Maple at no extra cost. </td></tr></table> But unlike C2, they go on to say: <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Do we offer any discounts? Yes, to dealers and to customers who purchase in volume. These discounts reflect the economies of building and processing equipment in volume, and we pass the savings on to our customers. </td></tr></table> Thus offering pilates studios the opportunity to sell equipment, decide if they would like to facilitate multiple sales or do some warehousing of their own. This also facilitates those who are trying to set up studios—which has the strong potential to increase the size of the enthusiast’s community. I would think that a similar policy at C2 would help C2, existing studio-owners (like Xeno) and encourage potential new studio owners. For instance, I note that it is very common for instructors at existing pilates studios to develop a clientele and decide to open their own facility. This is one reason that pilates studios start growing like weeds when there are several in an area. All of them need equipment and they tend to want the equipment they are accustomed to…so they then become customers themselves. 2. Support your enthusiasts so you can capitalize on them and help them build more enthusiasts. C2 has clearly taken this one to heart. As C2Bill said: <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(c2bill @ Oct 27 2005, 07:11 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Concept2 stands second to none when it comes to supporting our customers - from indoor racing, phone support, forums, online ranking to regatta oar service we offer more to our customers than nearly any other company I'm aware of. [right] </td></tr></table>But your support appears to be directed to individual enthusiasts only—you may want to expand your support to small businesses like Xeno’s. They are your customers too—and are likely to be your best source of future sales: whether multiple sales of “gotta-have-it” upgrades for their businesses, expanded facilities, second sites or individual sales to new enthusiasts they’ve inspired as a part of their business. As far as I can tell, your support for these business-level customers appears to be minimal, as opposed to “second to none.” For instance, you suggest that: <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(c2bill @ Oct 27 2005, 07:11 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> With respect to your group rowing program, Xeno, we brought in Angela Hart to run group rowing as a stand alone company. Working with Angela may help your business.[right] </td></tr></table>I took at look at your web site and it occurs to me that the Angela Hart certification for instructors (while helpful for a healthclub which has no one experienced in rowing), could, for someone like Xeno be perhaps as much impediment as help—he clearly doesn’t need certification himself, is capable of teaching his own instructors and if your efforts result in him needing to get himself and them “certified” by Angela (in order to be considered “qualified”) that would be a new “cost” for him. Perhaps there needs to be a procedure by which he or others can be listed as “certifiers” themselves on the C2 site? You might want to change your “machine finder” feature so that it shows not just where users can find machines but also where they can find group classes or instruction—although you would want to determine criteria so that users could be comfortable that they would be finding someone competent. Businesses like Xeno’s (who are your customers) should be able to be located by users who want to find someone in So. Cal.—or someone who will do video coaching. Finally while a company like Balanced Body sells a number of different DVDs, etc., it doesn’t seem to be setting itself up in competition with its small business customers. If one of your goals is to support your small business clients, you should be careful that you avoid the appearance of competing with them. 3. Support for machines in health clubs. Without going the “national publicity/diversification/retail sales route” that may have contributed to Nordictrack’s difficulties, you still probably know which health clubs, etc. you’ve sold machines to. Have you offered them posters, etc. to encourage competitive use—allowing member/users to list their times in competition with others locally? I understand the C2UK does that and it appears to have encouraged several of the people who post on that board to become active users. I was visiting in Boulder and went to a club there that required sign-up for cardio equipment in 15-minute segments (as I recall, you could sign-up for two 15-minute segments at a time), but didn’t see a sign for the two C2 rowers they had (one a Model B and one a Model C). When I asked, they told me “oh you don’t need to sign-up for those, almost nobody ever uses them.” Perhaps you are contacting clubs currently owning your equipment (or Angela’s company is), but if not, I suggest you do so, as when I asked the owner of the club (who happened to be at the desk), he was unaware that there was even a web site. Just posting on your web site is unlikely to develop the club market. 4. Video Screen Support. Finally, I note that the latest in health clubs seems to be video screens for individual pieces of cardio equipment. I don’t know if it’s possible, but you might want to contact one of the companies that produces those screens to see if they could also be used (with a suitable support) to allow wireless racing, either on-site or through internet competition. As potential users discover that the PM3 monitors allow heads-up competition between locations, even a single rower in a small club could allow competitive use and have the potential to be very popular, given the competitive impulse that seems to arise when good comparisons among rowers are available and those comparisons can be made in real time. A revision to the current software programs & hardware (which I understand require a separate computer and wired internet connection for each rower?) to allow a number of machines to connect wirelessly through a single computer and internet connection connection would proably be helpful for larger clubs and studios. However even a studio like Xeno’s might want to set up one or more of his machines for internet racing access, if such video screens and wireless set-ups were available and designed to be put in place only when needed. Note that this would provide both support to (as well as additional additional sales to) small studio businesses. I hope some of this has been helpful and will advance the conversation. Alissa

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » October 27th, 2005, 8:16 pm

Thank you very much Alissa for those superbly thorough answers. What I would like to add to the topic is that: I ALWAYS mention to new rowers at the Iron Oarsman what a great quality the Concept 2 rowing machine is. I tell them what a great price Concept2 has since they sell factory direct. I tell everyone that there is NO other machine that levels with Concept2s. I add that the internet is great place to keep up the motivation for new rowers and to keep on rowing. I am an outspoken advocate for Concept2. One thing that I clearly noticed is that it would not matter what brand rowing machine people would be using as long as the rowing machine sat on the C2 slides. For example any other more "obscure" rowing machine could do, which feels as smooth as the C2 of course. But my gosh I GREW UP on the C2 and I enjoy the competition and I feel like I belong to the Concept2 world of rowers. One thing that I missed telling the group is that at the Iron Oarsman we sell group rowing and team building. When I talk and show a brand new person what rowing is about, they leave happy and convinced the same way we are convinced about how great indoor rowing is. To sound dramatic this is how I feel: Here I am on the lower right edge of the US, holding high the Concept2 flag. Where is my back up? At this point I do not believe there will be any coming. Do I need Concept2's back up? It would nice, but I will move forward without it. However, it would nice, to feel included, because at the end we share exactly the same thought: Rowing is good for people and we want to be number one in this wonderful field. I remember training as a junior and thinking of Thomas Lange and how I want to race him in an Olympic final. I trained and focused and stayed on track. My goal now is that I want and need to successfully provide for my family through broadcasting the benefits of rowing so others can enjoy a better quality of life. Thank you for your privately sent supporting emails. I enjoy what I do and I blieve in team work. XENO

[old] akit110 · Post by **[old] akit110** » October 27th, 2005, 10:21 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Alissa @ Oct 27 2005, 04:36 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>There have been a number of interesting thoughts here and I thought I’d try to further the conversation on several of them: 1. Comparable companies : Akit110 suggests Nordictrack’s efforts to expand as a cautionary tale, and I think there are lessons to be learned, but I don’t think the lesson is “don’t do anything but what you’re doing”—I think it’s more along the line of if you try to be a “treadmill” you’ll get treated like a treadmill—so don’t do that. Here’s another company that might be examined as a possible model: <a href='http://www.pilates.com/siteguide.html' target='_blank'>Balanced Body Inc.</a>, which produces equipment for Pilates (note that I've linked to their site map, which provides lots of helpful "navigation info"--nothing comparable seems to be available on the C2 site). While Nordictrack didn’t develop its “smaller but loyal cadre of enthusiasts”, Balanced Body <a href='http://www.pilates.com/company.html' target='_blank'>did</a>. Like C2, Balanced Body produces specialized equipment which at the time they started was for a very small niche-group of users. While pilates is everywhere now, it certainly wasn’t in the ’70’s when Balanced Body (then-known as Current Concepts) started making and selling equipment. Like C2, they designed improved equipment. But in addition to direct sales they allowed sales through pilates studio/dealers. This inspires those studios to sell as well as use equipment themselves. Their pricing policy, as stated on their website is generally similar to C2s: <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>“Our pricing policy is simple and straightforward. We offer beautifully crafted equipment at very reasonable prices. We don’t offer inflated “retail“ pricing in order to give “discounts.” And we don’t price our equipment as stripped-down models with add-ons at every turn. We include all the features most people will need, without extra cost. For example, when you purchase our Studio Reformer, you’ll get a sitting box, a padded footbar, a built-in standing platform and a fifth spring – all included. Plus, your Reformer is built from Rock Maple at no extra cost. </td></tr></table> But unlike C2, they go on to say: <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Do we offer any discounts? Yes, to dealers and to customers who purchase in volume. These discounts reflect the economies of building and processing equipment in volume, and we pass the savings on to our customers. </td></tr></table> Thus offering pilates studios the opportunity to sell equipment, decide if they would like to facilitate multiple sales or do some warehousing of their own. This also facilitates those who are trying to set up studios—which has the strong potential to increase the size of the enthusiast’s community. I would think that a similar policy at C2 would help C2, existing studio-owners (like Xeno) and encourage potential new studio owners. For instance, I note that it is very common for instructors at existing pilates studios to develop a clientele and decide to open their own facility. This is one reason that pilates studios start growing like weeds when there are several in an area. All of them need equipment and they tend to want the equipment they are accustomed to…so they then become customers themselves. 2. Support your enthusiasts so you can capitalize on them and help them build more enthusiasts. C2 has clearly taken this one to heart. As C2Bill said: <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(c2bill @ Oct 27 2005, 07:11 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Concept2 stands second to none when it comes to supporting our customers - from indoor racing, phone support, forums, online ranking to regatta oar service we offer more to our customers than nearly any other company I'm aware of. [right] </td></tr></table>But your support appears to be directed to individual enthusiasts only—you may want to expand your support to small businesses like Xeno’s. They are your customers too—and are likely to be your best source of future sales: whether multiple sales of “gotta-have-it” upgrades for their businesses, expanded facilities, second sites or individual sales to new enthusiasts they’ve inspired as a part of their business. As far as I can tell, your support for these business-level customers appears to be minimal, as opposed to “second to none.” For instance, you suggest that: <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(c2bill @ Oct 27 2005, 07:11 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> With respect to your group rowing program, Xeno, we brought in Angela Hart to run group rowing as a stand alone company. Working with Angela may help your business.[right] </td></tr></table>I took at look at your web site and it occurs to me that the Angela Hart certification for instructors (while helpful for a healthclub which has no one experienced in rowing), could, for someone like Xeno be perhaps as much impediment as help—he clearly doesn’t need certification himself, is capable of teaching his own instructors and if your efforts result in him needing to get himself and them “certified” by Angela (in order to be considered “qualified”) that would be a new “cost” for him. Perhaps there needs to be a procedure by which he or others can be listed as “certifiers” themselves on the C2 site? You might want to change your “machine finder” feature so that it shows not just where users can find machines but also where they can find group classes or instruction—although you would want to determine criteria so that users could be comfortable that they would be finding someone competent. Businesses like Xeno’s (who are your customers) should be able to be located by users who want to find someone in So. Cal.—or someone who will do video coaching. Finally while a company like Balanced Body sells a number of different DVDs, etc., it doesn’t seem to be setting itself up in competition with its small business customers. If one of your goals is to support your small business clients, you should be careful that you avoid the appearance of competing with them. 3. Support for machines in health clubs. Without going the “national publicity/diversification/retail sales route” that may have contributed to Nordictrack’s difficulties, you still probably know which health clubs, etc. you’ve sold machines to. Have you offered them posters, etc. to encourage competitive use—allowing member/users to list their times in competition with others locally? I understand the C2UK does that and it appears to have encouraged several of the people who post on that board to become active users. I was visiting in Boulder and went to a club there that required sign-up for cardio equipment in 15-minute segments (as I recall, you could sign-up for two 15-minute segments at a time), but didn’t see a sign for the two C2 rowers they had (one a Model B and one a Model C). When I asked, they told me “oh you don’t need to sign-up for those, almost nobody ever uses them.” Perhaps you are contacting clubs currently owning your equipment (or Angela’s company is), but if not, I suggest you do so, as when I asked the owner of the club (who happened to be at the desk), he was unaware that there was even a web site. Just posting on your web site is unlikely to develop the club market. 4. Video Screen Support. Finally, I note that the latest in health clubs seems to be video screens for individual pieces of cardio equipment. I don’t know if it’s possible, but you might want to contact one of the companies that produces those screens to see if they could also be used (with a suitable support) to allow wireless racing, either on-site or through internet competition. As potential users discover that the PM3 monitors allow heads-up competition between locations, even a single rower in a small club could allow competitive use and have the potential to be very popular, given the competitive impulse that seems to arise when good comparisons among rowers are available and those comparisons can be made in real time. A revision to the current software programs & hardware (which I understand require a separate computer and wired internet connection for each rower?) to allow a number of machines to connect wirelessly through a single computer and internet connection connection would proably be helpful for larger clubs and studios. However even a studio like Xeno’s might want to set up one or more of his machines for internet racing access, if such video screens and wireless set-ups were available and designed to be put in place only when needed. Note that this would provide both support to (as well as additional additional sales to) small studio businesses. I hope some of this has been helpful and will advance the conversation. Alissa </td></tr></table> Nice analysis, Alissa. I hadn't thought about market intermediation in terms of rowing studios along the lines of pilates studios. I guess I had (previously) thought of Xeno's studio has a unique 'one of' rather than the beginning of a new segment in the market. But the pilates analogy makes it very clear how it could work. Mighty oaks from acorns grow. Ashwin

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » October 27th, 2005, 10:44 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Alissa @ Oct 27 2005, 03:36 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>4. Video Screen Support. Finally, I note that the latest in health clubs seems to be video screens for individual pieces of cardio equipment. I don’t know if it’s possible, but you might want to contact one of the companies that produces those screens to see if they could also be used (with a suitable support) to allow wireless racing, either on-site or through internet competition. As potential users discover that the PM3 monitors allow heads-up competition between locations, even a single rower in a small club could allow competitive use and have the potential to be very popular, given the competitive impulse that seems to arise when good comparisons among rowers are available and those comparisons can be made in real time. A revision to the current software programs & hardware (which I understand require a separate computer and wired internet connection for each rower?) to allow a number of machines to connect wirelessly through a single computer and internet connection connection would proably be helpful for larger clubs and studios. However even a studio like Xeno’s might want to set up one or more of his machines for internet racing access, if such video screens and wireless set-ups were available and designed to be put in place only when needed. Note that this would provide both support to (as well as additional additional sales to) small studio businesses. I hope some of this has been helpful and will advance the conversation. Alissa </td></tr></table> This is an excellent point, and actually a question that Xeno asked last month or so, and I don't think we really had an answer for him. I think the possible intersection of venue racing and online racing would be great opportunity to expand racing on the C2. If all of Xeno's rowing machines could be linked up using venue racing software, they could all race on screen at his shop. If those computers could be linked up via an internet connection to race other venues and other rowers online, then the options really explode. Clubs could race clubs. People who lacked an at home online connection, could go to a shop to race online, etc. To me, the ultimate implementation of this would be similar to what Apple did with the Newton 10 or 15 years ago: the newton was network "aware"; if another newton was present within range it could sense it and would offer the option to form a network. Two or more rowing machines sitting next to each at a health club could offer the easy option to form a wireless network and race against each other in this way.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » October 28th, 2005, 12:29 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Xeno @ Oct 27 2005, 02:54 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thank you for the nice comments which I take to heart. The amount of people who can benefit from rowing is H U G E. When I was rowing competitively I never thought that. Now I see first hand the "birth" of a new rower frequently. Right from the get go, three years ago, I knew from classes I took at University that minimizing income risk is done through diversification of the business. It would be great to sell the rowing machine that we use at the Iron Oarsman. Of course we all enjoy the LOW cost of the Concept2 rower as did I training on one in the past and later buying sixteen for the business. Buying factory direct was good for me then. Now it would be some nice "icing" if I were a dealer. As I said in my first post, this is food for thought. I know that there are a bunch of people who would enjoy having an indoor rowing center to own or to train at. I just can't believe that I am the only one in the United States, with square footage solely dedicated to training people to become physically and psychologically better. All righty now I am going to bed. A zombie can't run a workout at six am. Thanks, XENO </td></tr></table> Xeno; Like with everything else in life, be careful. There are all kinds of people who have never run their own business, or someone else's business for that matter, who want to give you "advice". Beware! This would be like taking rowing advice from someone who has never been on the water. The first question should be: "What company did you start, and how big did it get?" -or- "How's that business doing now?" Regards -- Mark

[old] c2bill · Post by **[old] c2bill** » October 28th, 2005, 10:42 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Alissa @ Oct 27 2005, 03:36 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>There have been a number of interesting thoughts here and I thought I’d try to further the conversation on several of them: 3. Support for machines in health clubs. Without going the “national publicity/diversification/retail sales route” that may have contributed to Nordictrack’s difficulties, you still probably know which health clubs, etc. you’ve sold machines to. Have you offered them posters, etc. to encourage competitive use—allowing member/users to list their times in competition with others locally? <snip> Perhaps you are contacting clubs currently owning your equipment (or Angela’s company is), but if not, I suggest you do so, as when I asked the owner of the club (who happened to be at the desk), he was unaware that there was even a web site. Just posting on your web site is unlikely to develop the club market. </td></tr></table> We've actually been working for the past several years on improving our relationships with health clubs around the country - we have a print and email newsletter that goes to our in house list - we have banners, posters, logbooks, waterbottles, duffle bags, technique DVD's etc all avail free of charge to clubs - and have developed two nation wide "health club challenges" - the North American Rowing Challenge (NARC) and the Fall Rowing Challenge (FRC). These have been well rec'd - with participants from across the country joining teams based at their health clubs in order to win prizes etc. In looking over this thread I think my biggest mistake has been NOT offering these email and club based challenge info to our ranking/forum population. I have estimated in the past that 15-25% of our forum/ranking population rows at health clubs - i should (and will in the future) post information on joining these challenges here an via the ranking. as an aside, FRC results can be viewed here: <a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/healthclub/f ... otal2.html' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/05/healthclub/f ... tml</a> and info on all our health club challenges can be here: <a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/healthclub/challenges.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/05/healthclub/c ... asp</a> <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> 4. Video Screen Support. </td></tr></table> This is currently under consideration. -bp

[old] afolpe · Post by **[old] afolpe** » October 28th, 2005, 11:24 am

Not that we are really "bashing" C2, but I would like to add at least one more complimenary note here. I bought a used Model C, so C2 hasn't really made a dime off me. Nonetheless, they offer me superb product support, a great place to keep my workout log, a (usually) helpful forum, and a variety of nice T shirts and other swag. So, I'm extremely appreciative of all of their support, and try to do what I can to always recommend their machines first and foremost to anyone who asks me for advice about any kind of indoor machine, be it rowing specific, kayaking-related, or just general. So, thanks C2! Andrew

[old] ancho · Post by **[old] ancho** » October 28th, 2005, 5:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(afolpe @ Oct 28 2005, 04:24 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Not that we are really "bashing" C2, but I would like to add at least one more complimenary note here. I bought a used Model C, so C2 hasn't really made a dime off me. Nonetheless, they offer me superb product support, a great place to keep my workout log, a (usually) helpful forum, and a variety of nice T shirts and other swag. So, I'm extremely appreciative of all of their support, and try to do what I can to always recommend their machines first and foremost to anyone who asks me for advice about any kind of indoor machine, be it rowing specific, kayaking-related, or just general. So, thanks C2! Andrew </td></tr></table> I also don't own a Concept, but I'll suscribe that! I think the forum/rankings/challenges/free goodies is superb marketing for a sustainable growth/evolution. Anyway in Europe (perhaps taking apart the UK, there still is a HUGE potential. The matter is what resources you'll need to get it.

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » October 28th, 2005, 6:43 pm

Racing is great fun but don’t know how emphasis should be put on it. I suspect many, if not most, people enjoy erging for the fitness and social aspects. It’s nice to row with others. For example, I was in a regatta in a 4+ recently, and I think the harmony and joint effort with my teammates was more of a thrill than actually recording a better time than the other 4+. With the C2, I think going to a gym and working out, even doing intervals, with friends is more fun that racing against friends. I would enjoy an occasional race against someone else, but I am more interested in trying to improve. Maybe that’s just me, but before I invested a lot of time and money in making racing more available to ergers in a gym, I would want to know how many people really wanted it. As an analogy, I think of a running group in my neighborhood. They get together every weekday morning very early and run together. They know very well who is fastest, and they don't race each other except when they compete in a race. They seem to have a great time and I hear them talking when they leave and later when they return. I think the idea of a large screen and people working out together is a nice idea. But to paraphrase Mark, it's easy to toss out ideas, especially if you don't have to make them actually work. Byron

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » October 29th, 2005, 6:20 pm

Hi Byron More than half of the rowers at the Iron Oarsman have fitness equipment at home. They choose to workout at our location because for the reasons you mentioned above. It is fun to row in a group with constructive coaching in addition. By the way, I can feel the "hockey stick" increase in membership coming some time soon. Thank you Neil for your remarks. I am very much looking forward to coaching the little students at Georgia and Xeno's school. XENO

[old] neilb · Post by **[old] neilb** » October 30th, 2005, 3:00 am

What I would like to see in my gym here in the UK is rowing classes in the same way there is spinning, body pump, body combat, etc etc. I beleive that some gym chains have rowing classes but certainly not all. I suspect that this would be a great way to get more people involved (it seems a waste when I see only say 3 out of 12 ergs being used at any one time ) and I am sure that providing the classes were not set up as some macho, fast as you can go, exercise (unlike spinning) but used for technique and variety people would join in and once started would become much more interested. I may be wrong but I guess that the reason there is not so many classes is that instructors find rowing too hard (technique and fitness wise) and there are easier ways to do the job. I wonder if there is anything that can be done to train gym instructors? (Xeno; any of the gym chains over in the USA likley to be interested in you training the trainers?) Neil.

[old] NightRower · Post by **[old] NightRower** » October 30th, 2005, 4:44 am

As a member of the online community and someone who loves rowing on the Erg (and one day hopes to try rowing on the water) what can I do to promote rowing? I tell all my collegues about it, they see me perusing the forum and such. It seems so few gyms (that I have seen anyway) have quality rowers (of the C2 caliber). The crappy rowing machines give C2 a bad name I think (to the uniformed anyway). I have seen more rowers used in hospitals (in Arizona) for cardiac rehab (after a heart attack, after surgery, transplant). How do you convince people to use a piece of equipment that is hard to use (in regards to the effort needed)? One of my friends, whose gym actually has a few C2 rowers, used one once after lots of urging and has not used it again as it is "too hard". It is too hard to cheat on an Erg! You can't coast. Even in a spinning class, one can coast and look like you are working hard, not so on the Erg. I don't know of anyway other than proudly wearing my C2 shirts (in particular my Million Meteres shirt and telling anyone who gets too close about rowing and how great I think it is! Darren

[old] Citroen · Post by **[old] Citroen** » October 30th, 2005, 7:36 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(neilb @ Oct 30 2005, 08:00 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What I would like to see in my gym here in the UK is rowing classes in the same way there is spinning, body pump, body combat, etc etc. I beleive that some gym chains have rowing classes but certainly not all. </td></tr></table> What I'd like is for C2 (UK and/or Worldwide) to provide a certification program. So you and I could become "Certified Indoor Rowing Instructors" and then we could pursuade our local gym to let us teach some sessions (on a freelance basis, but with them providing the public liability insurance).

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » October 30th, 2005, 9:37 pm

Hi, I took a look at the material that Concept2 offers as PDF files on their website for group rowing. It is nice and straight forward. However, in my humble opinion, a chapter is missing, which teaches about creating a workout chemistry for participants who do not come from a rowing background. If the indoor workouts resemble too much to classic rowing workouts, people will get bored and will not adopt it. Hi Nightrower, Thank you for your information. How do you know about cardiac rehab in Arizona? You point out a perfect example. There are SO many great ways to use a rowing machine (with and without slides). Whose job should it be to bring all these benefits to the media? Thank you Neil and Citroen for your thoughts and ideas. I hope you all had a good weekend.

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