Ranger - News To Shock

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 22nd, 2005, 1:04 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 22 2005, 06:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>you know that PATT is ... Amazing stuff.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Does this mean you are accepting the challenge????<br /><br />Or are you chickening out!!! Cluck Cluck Cluck!!! <br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 22nd, 2005, 1:07 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 21 2005, 10:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I know you don't want to challenge me to a 5k based on PATT percentages though, say any time within the next 4 weeks which would be ending January 18th. <br /><br />You would probably be chicken to do that, being afraid of races and time trials and all even though you are so much "faster" right Paul. <br /><br />And you'd probably get tired even trying it! <br /><br />So I won't bother to even suggest such a thing. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I figured PaulS would chicken out, and I was right about that! <br /><br />So I won't even bother to suggest it again. <br />

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 22nd, 2005, 1:12 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Soon you'll be back up to 200 df and 36-38 spm! </td></tr></table><br /><br />Bit of a difference between 200 df. and 122 df. <br /><br />And now each bit of additional drag _lowers_ my spm (for the same pace).<br /><br />Proper leverage, sequencing, and timing; fast legs.<br /><br />13 SPI<br /><br />ranger

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 22nd, 2005, 1:19 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 22 2005, 09:04 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 22 2005, 06:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>you know that PATT is ... Amazing stuff.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Does this mean you are accepting the challenge????<br /><br />Or are you chickening out!!! Cluck Cluck Cluck!!! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You used to just "Quack", now you're a duck playing chicken? <br /><br />What's your challenge? I haven't seen you make one yet? You did ask me to challenge you, but I don't pick on small old people, part of my upbringing. Unfortunately the senseless ones mistake this kindness for weakness, so do what ya gotta do.<br /><br />How about something in the 500m range, as you know I don't like to spend too much time in pain. We could even do it this way, you produce the best score you can and then let me know what score will shut your yap for good and I'll decide if it's worth bothering.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 22nd, 2005, 1:26 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 22 2005, 09:12 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Soon you'll be back up to 200 df and 36-38 spm! </td></tr></table><br /><br />Bit of a difference between 200 df. and 122 df. <br /><br />And now each bit of additional drag _lowers_ my spm (for the same pace).<br /><br />Proper leverage, sequencing, and timing; fast legs.<br /><br />13 SPI<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Careful Ranger, you are getting terribley close to giving up the secret of "Training Hard, Racing Easy". Shhhhhh......... <br /><br />Do make sure to ease into the higher DF's as the Flywheel's average speed is reduced considerably and the risk of "shock load" is increased. The feeling should be more like you are trying to take the catch rather slowly, but you will see that the force onset is still quite quick (reflexive at this point), doesn't need to be as high and will be a bit longer. "Flattened semicircle" that will yield faster paces.<br /><br />Cheers.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 22nd, 2005, 2:56 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 22 2005, 09:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What's your challenge? I haven't seen you make one yet? </td></tr></table><br />The half marathon, based on PATT scores would be good. <br /><br />However, you probably can't row that far so I have suggested the 5k to be nice. <br /><br />After all, you did say you could do a 5k..... yes......... ? <br /><br />This would be a compromise, between my half marathon and your 500 meters, although it's closer to 500 so should give you the advantage. <br /><br />But I still bet you're chicken and won't do it!!!

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 22nd, 2005, 2:59 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 21 2005, 03:27 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I may have said that I do not want to risk injury and that racing is a greater risk for that. I have done time trials that I am quite satisfied with, but they did require excessive recovery time (several weeks) that I do not wish to repeat. That was about two years ago and there is no reason to repeat the performances again.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 21 2005, 06:39 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Wow, two weeks to recover from a sprint.<br /><br />That must be a new world record! [right] </td></tr></table><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(slo_boat @ Dec 22 2005, 08:21 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>perhaps you would care to comment on recovery times from other activities and injuries. What is the world record for recovery for each of the following?<br /><br />A pulled muscle<br />A torn muscle<br />Open groin hernia repair<br />Knee arthroscopy<br />Shoulder arthroscopy<br />Sinus infections<br />Bacterial respiratory ailments<br />Viral respiratory ailments<br />Torn ACL<br />Overtraining syndrome<br /><br />Feel free to add any other ailments. (I note that you have proclaimed yourself an expert on asthma.)[right] </td></tr></table><br />Wow I hadn't realized Paul was suffering from all these things as a result of his 500 meter time trial. <br /><br />I'd better take it easy on him then! <br />

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 22nd, 2005, 3:00 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Do make sure to ease into the higher DF's as the Flywheel's average speed is reduced considerably and the risk of "shock load" is increased. The feeling should be more like you are trying to take the catch rather slowly, but you will see that the force onset is still quite quick (reflexive at this point), doesn't need to be as high and will be a bit longer. "Flattened semicircle" that will yield faster paces. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Exactly. At the higher drag, the force curves were flatter and longer today. <br /><br />I think the shock of the additional drag was very mild today (1) because I have been rowing at such a low drag (105 df.) and therefore adding a little drag (122 df.) does not really yield a sum of very much, (2) because the major strain in trying to go 1:36 at 105 df. after rowing a lot of 1:52 @ 18 spm or even 1:45 @ 24 spm is exactly the demand of even further quickness and therefore it is a relief rather than a shock to not have to be quite so fast to get the job done, (3) because my timing is now so much better, with an easier catch, initiated by the legs with no back at all, at full slide, with the body forward, and only then building power to the middle of the stroke, rather than concentrating force at the catch by being at 3/4 slide and engaging the legs and the back simultaneously in a big heave ho, and (4) because the major effect of increased drag is now just to accentuate, prolong, and therefore improve what I do already, but inadequately, that is, hang on the handle in the middle of the drive (and from there on into the finish).<br /><br />Really, given my better mechanics, it now seems _very_ easy and productive to progressively add bits of drag here and there to get some more tension on the chain and a little more relaxation in the cadence. <br /><br />It's working, Paul.<br /><br /> <br /><br />_Very_ pleased with this result.<br /><br />Perhaps I am wrong, but I think I wouldn't be making this smooth transition back to higher drag without having built up the sport-specific muscles I have needed to hold my technique in place at very high stroking power over long distances, that is, without my bizarre low rate "rowing with breaks."<br /><br />ranger<br />

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 22nd, 2005, 3:21 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Careful Ranger, you are getting terribley close to giving up the secret of "Training Hard, Racing Easy". Shhhhhh......... </td></tr></table><br /><br />Cheers, Paul.<br /><br />Thanks again for the good advice. <br /><br />It has indeed been a lot of work, but it appears to have been worth it, and I am sure at least some of this work has been unnecessary, a product of my slow, ornery learning habits.<br /><br />Oh well. We are what we are. Hard to escape that.<br /><br />ranger

[old] slo_boat · Post by **[old] slo_boat** » December 22nd, 2005, 4:07 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 22 2005, 01:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Wow I hadn't realized Paul was suffering from all these things as a result of his 500 meter time trial. <br /><br />I'd better take it easy on him then! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I apologize. It was wrong to suggest that you put a lot of effort into being a jerk. It is becoming obvious that you have some sort of personality disorder. Instead of criticism or derision, you deserve sympathy. This "acting out" that you do is a sad symptom. Hopefully your position as a life coach keeps you in contact with people who can provide the professional help you need.

[old] onethirtyfive · Post by **[old] onethirtyfive** » December 22nd, 2005, 4:31 pm

Ranger after many many months of saying you would do all your training and RACING at 105df (you were down to 95df at one stage) why have you suddenly jumped up to 122df (it is not a small jump) and potentially higher.<br /><br />Maybe the reason it feels better is that now that you are upping the rating (hence the wheel does not have as much time to slow) you are finding your legs are not as fast as you thought, therefore you are losing drive length, and you cant create the power and pace you thought you would.<br /><br />After bring so adamant about your drag, to change a few weeks before your first race seems strange. It also means all the habituation at the low drag now is compromised at the same time you are changing your ratings. This I would have thought is not good practice as you cant truly evaluate the effect of either change in isolation.<br /><br />cheers

[old] onethirtyfive · Post by **[old] onethirtyfive** » December 22nd, 2005, 4:33 pm

Hi Ranger,<br /><br />couple of days to Christmas. Are you now a lightweight as you predicted you would be?<br /><br />

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 22nd, 2005, 6:52 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 22 2005, 10:56 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 22 2005, 09:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What's your challenge? I haven't seen you make one yet? </td></tr></table><br />The half marathon, based on PATT scores would be good. <br /><br />However, you probably can't row that far so I have suggested the 5k to be nice. <br /><br />After all, you did say you could do a 5k..... yes......... ? <br /><br />This would be a compromise, between my half marathon and your 500 meters, although it's closer to 500 so should give you the advantage. <br /><br />But I still bet you're chicken and won't do it!!! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, give me the numbers that will get you to stop being a jerk and I will decide if the challenge is worthy of pursuing, or if I simply can't do it.<br /><br />So heres what I guess we need: The times that will beat your PATT's for 500m, 5k, and HM. Since you've said you will take it easy on me, you can surely provide those and let me choose. <br /><br />Make sure to list your Time/Pace "equivalents" so the differences are clear to all.<br /><br />Do I get a break when I turn 43? It's pretty close to happening so include those figures also.<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />PS - What are you willing to bet? (perhaps something worthwhile could make this interesting)<br /><br />PPS - And since we both have slides, how about we use them?

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 22nd, 2005, 7:28 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(onethirtyfive @ Dec 22 2005, 03:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Ranger after many many months of saying you would do all your training and RACING at 105df (you were down to 95df at one stage) why have you suddenly jumped up to 122df (it is not a small jump) and potentially higher.<br /><br />Maybe the reason it feels better is that now that you are upping the rating (hence the wheel does not have as much time to slow) you are finding your legs are not as fast as you thought, therefore you are losing drive length, and you cant create the power and pace you thought you would.<br /><br />After bring so adamant about your drag, to change a few weeks before your first race seems strange. It also means all the habituation at the low drag now is compromised at the same time you are changing your ratings. This I would have thought is not good practice as you cant truly evaluate the effect of either change in isolation.<br /><br />cheers <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think I could race at 105 df. just fine. I am indeed fast enough to catch the wheel at race pace and 105 df. I was adamant about staying at this drag factor because last time I tried to raise it in order to get more pace at the same leg speed, my technique collapsed. With an additional year of work on technique, it seems that now this doesn't happen when I up the drag a bit. And of course, if you up the drag but can _maintain_ your leg speed and precise timing and sequencing, whatever that might have been at a lower drag, you go faster without affecting your basic technique and with a somewhat more relaxed cadence. The effect, as I am experiencing it, is about 2 seconds per 500 at the same rate: 1:48 @ 20 spm comes out to be 1:46 @ 20 spm, 1:38 @ 28 spm comes out 1:36 @ 28 spm, etc.<br /><br />No, 122 df. is not that big of a change from 105 df.. I used to row at drag setting 10 on my model C, 200+ df. Going from 200+ df. to 105 df. is a big change. Going from 105 df. to 122 df. is not. The change from 105 df. to 122 df. just puts a little more tension on the chain and a little more load on the levers, tension and load that it seem that I am now entirely prepared to tolerate. Since 135 df. seems to be considered somewhat of a norm, 122 df., given my strength, is still very low. <br /><br />The major thing I have been habituating to is a new technique. This new technique remains in place at the higher drag. Tthe force curve at this higher drag is still nicely semicircular, but now with a bit more substance after the peak from the increased duration of my suspension on the handle. I think I might even be able to tolerate a bit more drag to get suspension on the handle all of the way into the finish, rather than just in the middle or late middle of my stroke. That would be ideal. I'll indeed try this out in a month or so, as WIRC approaches.<br /><br />Both my technique and my workouts are now enormously stable. _Very_ pleased about this. For the next week or so, I'll be doing double sessions, the first one in the morning at 1:36 @ 28-30 spm and 12.5-13 SPI, the second one in the afternoon at 18-20 spm and 14.7 SPI. This afternoon 1:46 @ 20 spm was coming very nicely. _Delighted_ with this.<br /><br />ranger <br />

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 22nd, 2005, 7:35 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(onethirtyfive @ Dec 22 2005, 03:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hi Ranger,<br /><br />couple of days to Christmas. Are you now a lightweight as you predicted you would be?<br /><br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I haven't been weighing myself yet, but my weight is _very_ good. I ground off any excess on the stepper over the last couple of weeks. I don't have access to a stepper now (the university has shut down its services) but I will resume my stepping after the New Year to finish the job, if need be. The quantity of work I can do on the stepper (without damage) allows me to adjust my weight at will, once I am in the general vicinity of 165 lbs. I step for 2000-2500 calories a session. That's half a pound of fat. If I step every day, I can lose 3-4 pounds a week, if I just eat normally. <br /><br />ranger <br />

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