Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have used a lot of words, but have proved nothing in favor of your case. </td></tr></table><br /><br />There is no need to prove a case. There is a need to clarify the selectional procedures, given the requirements for qualification, which appropriate the language and procedures of competitive sports.<br /><br />If the process is indeed competitive and as objective as possible, then this can be easily said. That C2 is unwilling to say this is telling.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] Ericr]

Quit whining.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ericr+Nov 30 2005, 05:36 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ericr @ Nov 30 2005, 05:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quit whining. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Regard it as you would like. The focus of my comment is on the future, not on the past. <br /><br />Given that C2 is appropriating the language and procedures of competitive sports, I think it is important for them to clarify that the selectional process is indeed based on these values. If it is not, their language and procedures are misleading and inappropriate, and should be changed--immediately.<br /><br />ranger <br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you were included for no particularly good reason and then didn't make an effort to participate </td></tr></table><br /><br />There is no reason to give one whit of extra effort to an athletic competition whose judges feel no responsibility to basic principles of fairness and objectivity. <br /><br />Would you vote if you knew that those who counted the votes could just throw your vote aside, and feel smugly right in doing so?<br /> <br />What is the point of racing if the times achieved don't count?<br /> <br />ranger

[[old] Ray79]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Nov 30 2005, 08:00 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Nov 30 2005, 08:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Would you vote if you knew that those who counted the votes could just throw your vote aside, and feel smugly right in doing so?<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sounds like alot of voting in America takes place this way. Where someone with more votes doesnt win!!! Strange.<br />Why so suprised that this is happening then??<br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray79+Nov 30 2005, 08:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ray79 @ Nov 30 2005, 08:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Nov 30 2005, 08:00 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Nov 30 2005, 08:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Would you vote if you knew that those who counted the votes could just throw your vote aside, and feel smugly right in doing so?<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sounds like alot of voting in America takes place this way. Where someone with more votes doesnt win!!! Strange.<br />Why so suprised that this is happening then?? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />States rights and the electoral college complicate the outcome of US presidential elections, but even these "rules" are specified. C2 is invoking the language and procedures of a contest but judging outcomes according to whim, with no rules whatsoever.<br /><br />ranger<br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Nov 30 2005, 05:00 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Nov 30 2005, 05:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you were included for no particularly good reason and then didn't make an effort to participate </td></tr></table><br /><br />There is no reason to give one whit of extra effort to an athletic competition whose judges feel no responsibility to basic principles of fairness and objectivity. <br /><br />Would you vote if you knew that those who counted the votes could just throw your vote aside, and feel smugly right in doing so?<br /> <br />What is the point of racing if the times achieved don't count?<br /> <br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You just said you were talking about the future, not the past, but you do not know anything about the present, because you did not participate. You seem to be "putting in a lot of effort", against even your own reasoning.<br /><br />Yes, I vote, even in WA, where the powers that be keep counting until they get the result they want, or the legislature changes what the people vote in by initiative. I think it's worth making the effort to at least be on record. Perhaps there is a worthwhile parallel here. "If you don't vote, you haven't earned the right to complain." <br /><br />Times achieved always count, I guess to "count more" you have to make them public. I'm happy with having private times, and they all count as far as I can tell.

[[old] jamesg]

I think it's absurd to expect a private organisation like C2 to act like a democracy. Far more likely they'll act like a Machiavellian prince or a 17th century skipper; and at the slightest offence lop our heads off after the soup and before the main course, or feed us to the sharks for their breakfast. When we have such well-tested and time-honoured procedures, why change? As for following rules, that's just ridiculous. I'd make them up as I went along, to suit me, and I'd be the only one to know what they are or even that they exist. Much more fun that way, and could even be more likely to reach the results I want. People who know the rules might try to use them, can't have that.

[[old] Andrew Burrows]

<br />

What is the point of racing if the times achieved don't count?<br /> <br />ranger <br />

<br /><br />But they do count, and if you say they dont your just stupid. The reason YOUR times wouldnt count is because your personality wouldnt fit in the Team. No matter that you would "probably" have the fastesrt 2k for your age and weight class, if your personality doesnt fit the team then your never going to be part of it, no matter how good you are. Look at Owens of the Philadelphia Eagles (get this, an Englishman talking about the NFL ), one of the best WR's in the league, but that doesnt matter, as soon as he stops being a team player he has been dropped (for now). So if you concentrated on becoming a Team player then Im sure your erg scores would then seal the deal for you in the future. Just my 2p's worth (cant think what 2p is in the USA - sorry).

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray79+Nov 30 2005, 05:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ray79 @ Nov 30 2005, 05:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Nov 30 2005, 08:00 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Nov 30 2005, 08:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Would you vote if you knew that those who counted the votes could just throw your vote aside, and feel smugly right in doing so?<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sounds like alot of voting in America takes place this way. Where someone with more votes doesnt win!!! Strange.<br />Why so suprised that this is happening then?? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Maybe C2 is using the same voting machines.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-Andrew Burrows+Nov 30 2005, 09:37 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Andrew Burrows @ Nov 30 2005, 09:37 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(cant think what 2p is in the USA - sorry). <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />A little over $0.03. But we also give our $0.02 worth.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-jamesg+Nov 30 2005, 09:55 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Nov 30 2005, 09:55 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think it's absurd to expect a private organisation like C2 to act like a democracy. Far more likely they'll act like a Machiavellian prince or a 17th century skipper; and at the slightest offence lop our heads off after the soup and before the main course, or feed us to the sharks for their breakfast. When we have such well-tested and time-honoured procedures, why change? As for following rules, that's just ridiculous. I'd make them up as I went along, to suit me, and I'd be the only one to know what they are or even that they exist. Much more fun that way, and could even be more likely to reach the results I want. People who know the rules might try to use them, can't have that. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sure, C2 can act how they want and indeed seem to be. But if they do, they lose the prestige and excitement of competitive sports, which are indeed subject to verifiable rules. All true games have rules.<br /><br />Hey! I think I will keep my WIRC time "confidential" this year in hope that the officials might declare me the winner, even if my time isn't the fastest!<br /><br /> <br /> <br /><br />C2 is ruining their own game. My guess is that if they continue to do this, they'll regret it.<br /><br />In this case, (fair!) competition is their cash cow.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You just said you were talking about the future, not the past, but you do not know anything about the present, because you did not participate. You seem to be "putting in a lot of effort", against even your own reasoning. </td></tr></table><br /><br />C2 has to make it worth the time and energy expended to participate. Without openly stated procedures of selection, participants have to weigh costs and benefits, given the possibility of arbitrary disqualification.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 1 2005, 06:11 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 1 2005, 06:11 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You just said you were talking about the future, not the past, but you do not know anything about the present, because you did not participate. You seem to be "putting in a lot of effort", against even your own reasoning. </td></tr></table><br /><br />C2 has to make it worth the time and energy expended to participate. Without openly stated procedures of selection, participants have to weigh costs and benefits, given the possibility of arbitrary disqualification.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />So your implications about these "unfair practices" being in place currently are BS?<br /><br />I'm sure the "excitement of competition" is going to be well in place, as it has been for the past 20+ years of IRC's, you are really making no sense in blowing this out of proportion. Participate or don't, you know the rules. (I know, you will say "No, I don't! That's the point!") Just because they are not the rules that you would make up, doesn't mean that they don't exist. I quit playing basketball when "the rules" (which make it a non-contact sport) seemed to be completely ignored. (At least until I contacted the guy that was contacting me, back.) <br /><br />Finally, if you show up at any IRC and produce the fastest time in your category you will be awarded 1st place. It doesn't get any more fair than that. It has even been known to happen that a person may get first place in a category that they qualified for, but were not specifically racing in. Which was discussed some years back, when there were heats involved for the Open class and the fastest time of the day did not even result in an award for teh person who produced it. Was that fair? Not particularly, IMO, but it was within the rules.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the reason YOUR times wouldnt count is because your personality wouldnt fit in the Team. No matter that you would "probably" have the fastesrt 2k for your age and weight class, if your personality doesnt fit the team then your never going to be part of it, no matter how good you are. Look at Owens of the Philadelphia Eagles (get this, an Englishman talking about the NFL  ), one of the best WR's in the league, but that doesnt matter, as soon as he stops being a team player he has been dropped (for now). </td></tr></table><br /><br />A team player? In erging? What does this mean? That I have to train like everyone else? I don't understand. <br /><br />I have never been on the USIRT. How is my situation parallel to Owens (a member of a team, in a team sport, etc.)? If I were on the USIRT, I would just go and row, and like everyone else, cheer my teammates on, as they would me. In fact, this is what I did at Boston, Birmingham, and Paris in 2003. I was there in Paris. What ruckus did I cause? Did I run out on the floor too quickly to congratulate Paul Hendershott on breaking the 60s WR? I was interviewed on the web cam after my Boston row. Did I say something outrageous about C2 or other rowers in that interview? <br />Making arbitrary decisions, after the fact, about what personalities "don't fit" some C2 standard is a pretty strange business.<br /><br />BTW, as I have said before, if I was judged, before the fact, as "unfit" for the team, why was I encouraged to do a trial, arranged by C2, at a remote location, by myself, on a Saturday morning, that I had to train two months for, and so on and so forth. I could have just been told not to bother.<br /><br />If you are right, Andy, then I think that C2 should issue a list each year of those people that, at the moment, they disqualify before the fact for ad hominem reasons. Heck, they might even explain what their reasons are, so that those disqualified wouldn't be too baffled by the ad hominem dismissal. That would also solve the difficulty. Then those who put in their time and energy and legitimately _earned_ a place on the team, as far as any objective considerations are concerned, wouldn't have their possiibilities for selection dismissed _after_ the fact. Doing this, I think, would be just common decency. <br /><br />I think that C2 would have all of the same rights that the Eagles have to dismiss a rower if that rower were selected but indeed could not get along with the other rowers in a trip to EIRC. They would also have the right, I think, to disqualify that person from selection in future years. But disqualifying someone for selection on undemonstrated hypotheticals after the fact is pretty wierd stuff. Unless something else can be said about this, I would say that it counts as a breach of the common procedures in competitive sports. Therefore, C2, in doing this, gives up the prestige that goes along with such procedures.<br /><br />As it stands now, the USIRT is not the United States Indoor Rowing Team. Why? Because selection for the team is not an open, competitive process. The USIRT is just a company team, the C2IRT. They just put on the team who they want. By not having open selectional procedures, C2 forfeits the right to appropriate the prestige of competitive sports and therefore--by that fact alone--devalues both the prestige of the team in general and the efforts and accomplishments of those who have been selected.<br /><br />Too bad, both for those selected and for C2.<br /><br />ranger