Who Could Be A Lightweight

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 22 2005, 01:30 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 22 2005, 01:30 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That may be true Ranger, but then the number of participants is also getting significantly smaller and as a generalisation lean body mass (muscle) declines with age.<br /><br />George[right] </td></tr></table><br />Well then, to save time it might be best to have just the lightweight division.<br />

[[old] cbrock]

Using the premises that doing away with weight differentiation and having the strongest only compete was intended to promote arguement but is still an interresting proposition.<br /><br />I would miss my middleweight and lightweight boxing though.<br /><br />Having those smaller guys compete against the superheavyweights would be quite an ask. Bit like David and Goliath<br /><br />ChrisB<br /><br />(would also decimate about 4 Olympic sports I think!)<br /><br />Cheers.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-onethirtyfive+Dec 22 2005, 12:18 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(onethirtyfive @ Dec 22 2005, 12:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When you sitting on a erg ready to chuck and your chests is heaving because you cant take a breath, then I think really we are all very equal.<br /><br />cheers <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think this is an excellent point, but in fact we are not equal, the ones that are slower must endure the discomfort for a longer period of time.<br /><br />While the same people would get the most meters in a given time as the ones that finish a fixed distance in the least amount of time. A 7 minute Distance trial would be a whole different animal for both the sub 6 2k'er and the 8+ min 2k'er. Presuming both are putting everything they have into the effort. I'd say that ideally I could take another good 5 strokes, but 10 would be pushing it. The final 500m usually involves some suffering but that 500m can take vastly different amount of time. <br /><br />I hate fixed time workouts, not enough cause and effect to positively motivate me.

[[old] onethirtyfive]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 23 2005, 11:40 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 23 2005, 11:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-onethirtyfive+Dec 22 2005, 12:18 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(onethirtyfive @ Dec 22 2005, 12:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When you sitting on a erg ready to chuck and your chests is heaving because you cant take a breath, then I think really we are all very equal.<br /><br />cheers <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think this is an excellent point, but in fact we are not equal, the ones that are slower must endure the discomfort for a longer period of time.<br /><br />While the same people would get the most meters in a given time as the ones that finish a fixed distance in the least amount of time. A 7 minute Distance trial would be a whole different animal for both the sub 6 2k'er and the 8+ min 2k'er. Presuming both are putting everything they have into the effort. I'd say that ideally I could take another good 5 strokes, but 10 would be pushing it. The final 500m usually involves some suffering but that 500m can take vastly different amount of time. <br /><br />I hate fixed time workouts, not enough cause and effect to positively motivate me. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />I read years ago a comment by Mark Allen or one of those guys that dominated the Ironman in the early days that he has the utmost respect for those people that took 14, 15,16 hours to finish. He said it took extraordinary courage and commitment to keep going for that long in such an event.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That may be true Ranger, but then the number of participants is also getting significantly smaller and as a generalisation lean body mass (muscle) declines with age. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, participation is slight in the 55-59 agae group, but at the limits of achievement, times are consistently respectable and fall into very regular patterns.<br /><br />Lean body mass declines with age? For whom? I don't think I have lost any lean body mass at all. I am just as strong as I ever was at just the same weight that I've always been.<br /><br />I have lost quite a few other things over the years (my hair, my mind, 20,000,000,000 pens, which I leave everywhere and therefore can never keep track of, etc.), but I haven't lost lean body mass.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Of course, you need to work to maintain your lean body mass when you are as old as 55, and the more lean body mass you have the harder you would have to work to maintain it; but this can be done, if you want to. It appears that most big 55-year-old heavyweights just don't want to. In order to stay in top shape when they are as old as 55, big heavyweights might have to face many other problems that lightweights don't have to face: bad joints, bad backs, inability to do a lot of weight-bearing exercise, etc. Therefore, for good reason, as time goes on, it may be that heavyweights just won't be the fastest rowers in the age groups 55-59 and beyond; and if this is so, you would need to row as a lightweight to row against the best at that age. <br /><br />I would bet that Graham Watt hasn't lost much lean body mass, either.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 22 2005, 01:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 22 2005, 01:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 22 2005, 01:30 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 22 2005, 01:30 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That may be true Ranger, but then the number of participants is also getting significantly smaller and as a generalisation lean body mass (muscle) declines with age.<br /><br />George[right] </td></tr></table><br />Well then, to save time it might be best to have just the lightweight division. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, isn't that a fine HOW DO YOU DO?!?!<br /><br />A class that exists due to the kindness of the hwt Rowers that decided it would be nice to afford an opportunity for little people to "compete". (No doubt due to our great affection for the dedicated coxswains we spent so much time with over the years.) <br /><br />Now a member of that class wants to do away with it's benefactor? Amazing!

[[old] TomR/the elder]

60-yr-old heavyweight record: 6.23.7<br /><br />50-year-old lightweight record: 6.25.8<br /><br />Real men beat the mites, even if we give them a 10-yr handicap.<br /><br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Therefore, for good reason, as time goes on, it may be that heavyweights just won't be the fastest rowers in the age groups 55-59 and beyond; and if this is so, you would need to row as a lightweight to row against the best at that age. </td></tr></table><br /><br />It looks as though C2 is also realizing this. Starting in 2005, C2 now protects "so-called" "open" weight rowers from losing their medals at the CRASH-Bs if a lightweight in the same age division is faster. Why do this, if the heavyweights are always the fastest rowers? The situation should never arise.<br /><br />But it does.<br /><br />I guess the fatties need all the help they can get: "special" categories, etc.<br /><br /> <br /><br />What next? A head start? Handicapping? A second off your time for each pound of lard (or unconditioned muscle)?<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Dec 23 2005, 11:25 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Dec 23 2005, 11:25 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->60-yr-old heavyweight record: 6.23.7<br /><br />50-year-old lightweight record: 6.25.8<br /><br />Real men beat the mites, even if we give them a 10-yr handicap. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />At the moment...<br /><br /> <br /><br />The times, they are a-changin'!<br /><br />ranger

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 23 2005, 08:29 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 23 2005, 08:29 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />What next? A head start? Handicapping? A second off your time for each pound of lard (or unconditioned muscle)?<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sounds like a plan! A second off for every pound over the <b>optimal</b> lwt limit....

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 22 2005, 01:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 22 2005, 01:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well then, to save time it might be best to have just the lightweight division.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 23 2005, 02:35 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 23 2005, 02:35 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course, you need to work to maintain your lean body mass when you are as old as 55, and the more lean body mass you have the harder you would have to work to maintain it; but this can be done, if you want to. It appears that most big 55-year-old heavyweights just don't want to. In order to stay in top shape when they are as old as 55, big heavyweights might have to face many other problems that lightweights don't have to face: bad joints, bad backs, inability to do a lot of weight-bearing exercise, etc. Therefore, for good reason, as time goes on, it may be that heavyweights just won't be the fastest rowers in the age groups 55-59 and beyond; and if this is so, you would need to row as a lightweight to row against the best at that age.[right] </td></tr></table><br />Yes I think we are in agreement about this.<br />

[[old] Rate35]

I m 16, 6'4, and my weight goes from 135 to 145 in a flash, I got very little trouble keeping it down and for someone my size I can crank out some pretty decent scores. It not a matter of saying you can make lightweight or even flyweights, its more so the type of training you do and your diet.

[[old] cbrock]

[quote=Coach Gus,Dec 23 2005, 03:47 AM]<br />Why would I want to lose weight just to be able to erg against slower competition? I want to compete with the strongest and fastest. I'm not going to find them in the LW category.<br /><br /><br />Or in age groups. So its decided lets have the "ideal" system everybody is equal on the C2.<br /><br />Do away with all age groups and weight categories and just have the open division. <br /><br />No Junior divisions either don't want them getting any recognition.<br /><br />Might make them train hard and beat old farts like you and me.<br /><br />Chris

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-cbrock+Dec 23 2005, 04:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(cbrock @ Dec 23 2005, 04:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Coach Gus+Dec 23 2005, 03:47 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Dec 23 2005, 03:47 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Why would I want to lose weight just to be able to erg against slower competition?  I want to compete with the strongest and fastest.  I'm not going to find them in the LW category.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Or in age groups. So its decided lets have the "ideal" system everybody is equal on the C2.<br /><br />Do away with all age groups and weight categories and just have the open division. <br /><br />No Junior divisions either don't want them getting any recognition.<br /><br />Might make them train hard and beat old farts like you and me.<br /><br />Chris <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Chris,<br /><br />I do believe you are catching the spirit of this "debate", the Erg cares nothing about any of our physical peculiarities or differences, it only cares about one thing, how much power we can exchange with the Flywheel to produce a given pace to cover a distance.<br /><br />All maximal efforts are tough on the one doing them and to belittle someone who is slower (Basically never happens out of the blue) is just as bad as claiming a slower performance is in any way "better" than (or even equal to) a faster one (This is more common, and the major reason behind the "adjustment" schemes).<br /><br />Creating the "classes" is a good strategy, in that it allows for many competitors to compete with their peers. What some need to realize is that if they want to "compete" with a group that is not in their class, the only way to do that is to enter the faster classes event and go for it. i.e. You can only "race" the ones that show up and a hwt can't enter a lwt event, though the lwt is free to "race up" is they would like, just as any 27+ can enter the Open event if they want to compete against the fastest possible competition.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 23 2005, 04:59 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 23 2005, 04:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the Erg cares nothing about any of our physical peculiarities or differences, it only cares about one thing, how much power we can exchange with the Flywheel to produce a given pace to cover a distance. </td></tr></table><br />Yes the erg has adjusted away that any performer running on land or rowing on the water must carry her or his weight.<br /><br />This makes heavy out of shape coach-type rowers feel good, even though they are producing much less power per weight than those who are lighter and more fit.<br /><br />However, put them in a boat or line them up on the starting line of a foot race then that adjustment quickly disappears.<br /><br />Which is as it should be.