Us Indoor Rowing Team Selection

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Nov 21 2005, 08:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Nov 21 2005, 08:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I guess we go on guessing whether we are one of the "appropriate" ones, who, if we rowed well in a trial, might be selected, because we "fit the mould," whatever that might be.[right] </td></tr></table><br />Rich,<br /><br />The mold goes something like this...... <img src='http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/kiss.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet you continue to be "the victim". </td></tr></table><br /><br />I am not at all "the victim" now. C2 is. They have victimized themselves by violating basic fairness in sports. <br /><br />This is a serious breach of ethics.<br /><br />I am just talking about it, because C2 seems unrepentant and just delighted to contiinue on as is.<br /><br />So be it.<br /><br />The press doesn't cover things because they feel "victimized." The press covers things in order to get the facts out in the open, root out injustice, and by producing an informed citizenry, put pressure on individuals and institutions to change their ways toward the goal of a more humane and civil society. <br /><br />(Wow. Pretty high talk, that!)<br /><br />Come on, Ranger. Knock it off! For Gold's sake, it's just _rowing_!!<br /><br />ranger

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Nov 21 2005, 01:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 21 2005, 01:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This photo says it all!<br /><br />Here is Eddy Merckx just before smashing the 1 Hour World Record at Mexico City in 1972.<br /><br />"Throughout this hour, the longest of my career, I never knew a moment of weakness, but the effort needed was never easy ... I will never try it again ... <b>I don't think I could ever improve on this record</b>."<br /><br />Certainly not at sea level!        <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And the same kind of crap was getting spewed:<br /><br />"In 1984 Francesco Moser added over a kilometer to Eddy's distance for the hour. While Moser's performance had great athletic merit it was also assisted by major advances in streamlining. Merckx felt that for the first time the Hour record had been devalued. For the first time personal fitness had not been the sole criterion for a new record. In defeat Merckx had always been a fair man. But this time he remained unconvinced. After all, he had beaten Moser in every time trial in which they had met. His disgust with the purety of the Hour record was obvious, when, commenting on Moser, he said, "For the first time in the history of the Hour record a weaker man has beaten a stronger man.""<br /><br />It's the air resistance, or lack thereof, that made for the EM performance, he even says as much about FM. The Erg gives no such adavantage at altitude, in fact it compensates against you. That said, it may well be that Boats at altitude might have a slight advantage, but since the speed is relatively low it would be counteracted by the lack of available O2, netting a disadvantage.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For Gold's sake </td></tr></table><br /><br />Nice typo! Freud would be smilin'.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 21 2005, 01:28 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 21 2005, 01:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"In 1984 Francesco Moser added over a kilometer to Eddy's distance for the hour. While Moser's performance had great athletic merit it was also assisted by major advances in streamlining.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />PaulS,<br /><br />You failed to read your own quotation, tsk, tsk.<br /><br />It was Francesco Moser in <b>1984</b> who used the advantages of streamlining.<br /><br />Eddy Merckx's record in <b>1974</b> was done on a regulation NOT streamlined bicycle.<br /><br />Point proven again! <br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Nov 21 2005, 01:22 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Nov 21 2005, 01:22 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet you continue to be "the victim". </td></tr></table><br /><br />I am not at all "the victim" now. C2 is. They have victimized themselves by violating basic fairness in sports. <br /><br />This is a serious breach of ethics.<br /><br />I am just talking about it, because C2 seems unrepentant and just delighted to contiinue on as is.<br /><br />So be it.<br /><br />The press doesn't cover things because they feel "victimized." The press covers things in order to get the facts out in the open, root out injustice, and by producing an informed citizenry, put pressure on individuals and institutions to change their ways toward the goal of a more humane and civil society. <br /><br />(Wow. Pretty high talk, that!)<br /><br />Come on, Ranger. Knock it off! For Gold's sake, it's just _rowing_!!<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh yes, I'm sorry. I meant to say "Play the victim."<br /><br />It also doesn't sound like you know much about the "Press", there was so much made up crap about New Orleans and Katrina that the "truth" and "the Press" should probably not be mentioned in the same sentence. Dan Blather at least was fired after his "truthfulness" got in the way, and Ms. Mapes is still insisting that "they must prove it is false". Sorry, that's not the way we do things in this country. We assume innocence, which causes it's own set of problems, but to assume guilt creates a much more grim situation.<br /><br />And just a quick point: It ain't even Rowing.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Nov 21 2005, 01:35 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 21 2005, 01:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 21 2005, 01:28 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 21 2005, 01:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"In 1984 Francesco Moser added over a kilometer to Eddy's distance for the hour. While Moser's performance had great athletic merit it was also assisted by major advances in streamlining.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />PaulS,<br /><br />You failed to read your own quotation, tsk, tsk.<br /><br />It was Francesco Moser in <b>1984</b> who used the advantages of streamlining.<br /><br />Eddy Merckx's record in <b>1974</b> was done on a regulation NOT streamlined bicycle.<br /><br />Point proven again! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You fail to understand just about everything, tsk, tsk...<br /><br />I'm not sure that EM "designed his own" bikes to be less streamlined. And although there can be certain streamlining done to the cycle, when you add a rider it's inconsequential. I didn't even look, was Moser's performance at altitude also?<br /><br />I suppose you have proven your "point" once again, it's just not the point you think.

[[old] Rocket Roy]

JEEZ!!<br /><br />I've lost the will to live rteading all this. WTF, <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>the team is picked </span>shut the F*** up and live with it and get on with the F***** training. JEEZ!!

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Erg gives no such adavantage at altitude, in fact it compensates against you. </td></tr></table><br /><br />The difficulty is not that there must be an altitude adjustment. Of course, there should! The difficulty is with the reasoning behind the selections for the 2003 team based on the trials, some of which were at altitutde.<br /><br />Dennis has never come close to rowing 6:29. He just can't do it. The best he has ever done is 6:33? The best he had done the year before his 2003 trial was 6:35.5, and that was when he was younger. When it came around to the CRASH-Bs in 2004, he rowed 6:39.5. Now he rows in the 6:40s.<br /><br />There is also the issue that Dennis and I raced head to head at WIRC 2003 and I beat him by 5.5 seconds. After WIRC 2003, I was the reigning CRASH-B champion _and_ world record holder. <br /><br />Then in the off-season of 2003, I got better. In my trial, I broke my own world record. Then I broke it again at BIRC 2003 before EIRC.<br /><br />If criterea for selection are going to be subjective, then we might at least ask that the subjectivity have some common sense rather than just "family" feeling.<br /><br />Avoiding entirely any concern for common sense just isn't fair to those who give their time and energy to the possibility of being chosen for the team.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 21 2005, 01:43 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 21 2005, 01:43 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->although there can be certain streamlining done to the cycle, when you add a rider it's inconsequential.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Wrong again, tsk, tsk. <br /><br />Streamlining has major benefits on bicycle performance. Check the human powered vehicle site and you will see speeds of over 60 mph have been reached by such streamlining on a bicycle, and which totally negate the profile of the rider.<br /><br />Moser's bicycle is now illegal for racing and for record attempts for that reason.<br /><br />As Eddy Merckx stated, and you quoted, he beat Moser very easily every single time they raced. Moser was not in his class. The only reason Moser "bettered" the record was his bicycle, which is now illegal for such record attempts.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-Rocket Roy+Nov 21 2005, 04:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Rocket Roy @ Nov 21 2005, 04:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->JEEZ!!<br /><br />I've lost the will to live rteading all this. WTF, <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>the team is picked </span>shut the F*** up and live with it and get on with the F***** training. JEEZ!! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />My concern is not that the team is picked. My concern is with the selection process.<br /><br />The selection process has not at all been changed.<br /><br />It is just the same as it was in 2003.<br /><br />Therefore, there is good reason to think that it is still arbitrary, not at all dependent on rowing, but on other matters.<br /><br />This is sad.<br /><br />C2 has spoiled their own game.<br /><br />I think they should fix it.<br /><br />It would be easy to fix.<br /><br />All that C2 would have to do is this: (1) say explicitly that in clear cases selection for the USIRT will be based on the quality of the 2K trials submitted, (2) make public the results of the 2K trials submitted, and (3) provide a brief explanation of how decisions were made in tough cases, where there were trials of roughly equal merit in different divisions.<br /><br />This isn't much to ask and would be very easy to do.<br /><br />If this were done, I would be happy to shut up and participate to the extent of my ability, as I did, with full faith that the outcome was going to be judged fairly, in 2003.<br /><br />ranger<br /><br />P.S. I train in the morning. It's all done by 6 a.m. This chatter doesn't at all get in the way of training. Training is going great.<br />

[[old] NavigationHazard]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Nov 21 2005, 04:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 21 2005, 04:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Rowing 2k is nothing like running a 3000 meters.  Do you think Graham Benton or any other top hwt's could compete in a 3000 meter running race!  Heck no!!  A 2k on the erg is more like running a 400 meters, or an 800 meters at the most.<br /><br />And both of those events are FASTER AT ALTITUDE, not slower! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Maybe the way you row a 2k it's not like running a 3k. <br /><br />The point is that a rowed/erged 2k trial is considered to be 70-80% aerobic depending on the athlete. For runners that corresponds to a distance of at least 1500m and perhaps as much as 3000.<br /><br />As for relative performance at 400 and 800m, balderdash. <br /><br />The best 800m time ever done at significant altitude (Nairobi) ranks only 215th on the all-time list. See <a href='http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/athletics/m_800ok.htm' target='_blank'>800m Men's All-Time Performances</a> if you don't believe me.<br /><br />There are marginally more 400m results at altitude in the top couple of hundred all time, notably Lee Evans' performances in/around the Mexico City Olympics in 1968. But by and large the same story holds there as well. See <a href='http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/athletics/m_400ok.htm' target='_blank'>400m Men's All-Time Performances</a> for proof.<br /><br />If these events somehow were faster at altitude, as you claim, world-class times would reflect it. They don't. <br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->t ain't even Rowing </td></tr></table><br /><br /> <br /><br />Good one!<br /><br />Maybe I should just give up the erg altogether and row on the water.<br /><br />Maybe everyone should!<br /><br />Rowing to nowhere. Whoda thought?<br /><br />Racing to nowhere! Even wierder.<br /><br />Racing to nowhere and having the results judged arbitrarily in terms of "family feeling" rather than merit.<br /><br />Wierder yet!<br /><br />Nuttier than Zatopek!<br /><br />ranger

[[old] Ray79]

Oh My God............Its like fucking groundhog day both here and on the UK forum.<br /><br />Can you see your shadow Ranger??

[[old] John Rupp]

Nav,<br /><br />I will forgive your ignorance about running, since you are obviously not a runner.<br /><br />However I suggest you go out and have someone time you for 7 1/2 laps of a track.<br /><br />If you can get anywhere close to 6:19 or whatever your 2k time is on the erg then I will be very impressed.<br /><br />That would mean you could run a mile in 3 minutes and 15 seconds!