Protein Stuff

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->men eating soy... how unfortunate. <br /><br />1. it's a shitty protein - really shitty - read here: I as a man, like having nice high-Testosterone levels - that is what makes us "men" in a biological sense - oh yeah, it's also a big factor in what keeps us looking younger..<br /><br />2. if you're not a vegan/vegetarian then why the h*** would you even waste your time with this crap? Unless being scrawny and weak are appealing to you that is... </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Soy has been a basic staple in Oriental diet, yet fertility has not been a problem for them, and they are certainly not on the verge of extinction! <br /><br />I am not sure about the testosterone of this fellow, but he looks pretty strong! <br /><br /><img src="http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/ ... okuni2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

[[old] Yukon John]

Sorry if I offended you diesel, that wasn't my intent. I was trying to use a bit of humor and keep the discussion light and fun. As far as my weight goes, I was 181 last summer and since I got into rowing in August I lost the weight you mentioned. I did this on purpose. I like the feeling of being light and wirey. I don't like getting on a bike or going for a run with an extra 15 lbs. I don't need. My fat % hovers between 8-10%. But to each there own, you like being a big guy and I prefer having the build of a triathalete. Neither is better, just different. <br /><br />As Francois mentioned, soy is a staple in the far east and has been for around for more than 2500 years. People on a traditional diet in that area have almost no heart disease, or strokes, osteoperosis and the cancer rate is way lower then western diets. Of course it's not just soy that is responsible for less disease. My personal belief (and this is just me) is that there are few foods that are actually bad for you and the more varied your diet the healthier you'll be. <br /><br />

[[old] johnmcclellan]

<!--quoteo(post=58462:date=Mar 4 2006, 04:17 PM:name=Yukon John)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 4 2006, 04:17 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>My personal belief (and this is just me) is that there are few foods that are actually bad for you and the more varied your diet the healthier you'll be.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I agree with this basic principle, John. The problem with so many of the diet studies is that there is so much conflicting information. <br /><br />On the animal vs soy debate, I feel very strongly both ways. I really enjoy rare lamb with an aged Brunello, after having consumed a cold beer while I was grilling the lamb, so Diesel, we could enjoy a great meal. On the other hand, when I was antibiotics a little while ago battling strep throat (courtesy of one of my kids), my doctor told me to not use dairy products while on medication. I find it tough to live w/o at least one glass of milk a day, so I gave soy milk a try. I discovered that my chronic nasal congestion all but went away during this time, so I decided to stick with the soy. Now, when I go back to regular milk, or if I eat a fair amount of cheese, I'm back to being congested the next day. I also find soy is easy to digest during ultra-distance bike rides (my real sport), where you need a lot more than carbs to get you through the event. I'm not a soy junky any more than I'm a lamb junky. I think I am a salmon junky, which is loaded with healthy fats. I try to avoid the few foods that I think are unequivocally bad - simple sugars, over-processed carbs and saturated fats (I trim the lamb pretty well first). <br /><br />As an ultra-distance cyclist (I sure wouldn't call myself a rower - never been in a boat!) I'm trying to keep my weight down (it is a real disadvantage in the hills). In terms of testosterone related stuff, at 165 (pretty big for cycling), I'm at 5% body fat, do chin-ups with 50lbs of bricks in a backpack, full-drop single leg squats balancing a 55lb kettlebell, have a black belt in Okinawan karate and have 5 kids, so I think I'm doing just fine in that department.

[[old] Yukon John]

<!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->I agree with this basic principle, John. The problem with so many of the diet studies is that there is so much conflicting information. </td></tr></table> <!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->On the animal vs soy debate, I feel very strongly both ways. I really enjoy rare lamb with an aged Brunello, after having consumed a cold beer while I was grilling the lamb, so Diesel, we could enjoy a great meal. On the other hand, when I was antibiotics a little while ago battling strep throat (courtesy of one of my kids), my doctor told me to not use dairy products while on medication. I find it tough to live w/o at least one glass of milk a day, so I gave soy milk a try. I discovered that my chronic nasal congestion all but went away during this time, so I decided to stick with the soy. Now, when I go back to regular milk, or if I eat a fair amount of cheese, I'm back to being congested the next day. I also find soy is easy to digest during ultra-distance bike rides (my real sport), where you need a lot more than carbs to get you through the event. I'm not a soy junky any more than I'm a lamb junky. I think I am a salmon junky, which is loaded with healthy fats. I try to avoid the few foods that I think are unequivocally bad - simple sugars, over-processed carbs and saturated fats (I trim the lamb pretty well first). <br /><br />As an ultra-distance cyclist (I sure wouldn't call myself a rower - never been in a boat!) I'm trying to keep my weight down (it is a real disadvantage in the hills). In terms of testosterone related stuff, at 165 (pretty big for cycling), I'm at 5% body fat, do chin-ups with 50lbs of bricks in a backpack, full-drop single leg squats balancing a 55lb kettlebell, have a black belt in Okinawan karate and have 5 kids, so I think I'm doing just fine in that department. </td></tr></table><br /><br />We're about the same weight and height John! When I was probably in the best physical condition I've been in was when I used to be on a cross country ski team at university, with the time to work out a couple of times, and a couple of hours / day. At that time, I was the same weight that I'm back at now. I feel good about that and it fits with the activities I've chosen to do. It seems that for long distance activities, there is a fine balance between having larger muscles and increased strength and having less strength and less bulk. It seems that the longer the distance (depending on the activity) the advantage lies with less weight. Even in mountaineering, where you would think that strength would be at a premium, most good climbers were light in weight, but strong for their size. <br /><br />You are right about the conflicting research out there. In the back of a book called "The China Study" the author goes into a lot of detail about research, funders for the research, lobby groups and government agencies. It's a real quagmire and the info. that comes out as "conclusive evidence" isn't always so. It's a sad state of affairs when people's health are affected negatively so that some group can benefit. <br /><br />As far as meat goes, I'm not against it at all and I would never preach to others about not eating it. It's just a food choice that my family made for varied reasons. So I could do without the lamb, but the Brunello sounds interesting. It's a wine I take it? I went climbing down in Canmore Alberta last fall with my brother in law and he was really into wine. I must admit that beer has always been my choice of non-healthy choices, but I quite enjoyed the wine tasting (until the next morning that is .) <br /><br />Maybe on the cycling thread you could tell me more about your long distance rides. You've got me curious! John.<br />

[[old] johnmcclellan]

<!--quoteo(post=58486:date=Mar 4 2006, 09:52 PM:name=Yukon John)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 4 2006, 09:52 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />I was the same weight that I'm back at now. I feel good about that and it fits with the activities I've chosen to do. It seems that for long distance activities, there is a fine balance between having larger muscles and increased strength and having less strength and less bulk. It seems that the longer the distance (depending on the activity) the advantage lies with less weight. Even in mountaineering, where you would think that strength would be at a premium, most good climbers were light in weight, but strong for their size. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I've been the same weight since my junior year in high school. Swam through college, lifted lots of weights, got stronger, never gained any weight. Some bodies build muscle mass, some don't. But I do well in strength to weight ratio sports. My body type has worked fine for swimming, for cycling, hasn't hurt me in martial arts. Your observation about climbers is telling. There are 125 lb women who can do amazing things on the rocks. A very interesting observation, however, is in ultrarunning - another sport I've done. Top ultrarunners are, for the most part, significantly more muscular than top marathoners. Not body builders, of course, but I think the added strength pays off when you are hammering up and down rocky trails for 100 miles.<br /><br /><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>As far as meat goes, I'm not against it at all and I would never preach to others about not eating it. It's just a food choice that my family made for varied reasons. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />My sister is a vegetarian, and my teenage daughters are on and off. I understand the logic.<br /><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>So I could do without the lamb, but the Brunello sounds interesting. It's a wine I take it?<br /> </td></tr></table><br />And then some! Useful background - <a href="http://www.foodreference.com/html/artbrunello.html" target="_blank">http://www.foodreference.com/html/artbrunello.html</a>. Find a nice old bottle, a special occasion and enjoy!<br /><br />See you at the cycling thread!

[[old] DIESEL]

<!--quoteo(post=58462:date=Mar 4 2006, 04:17 PM:name=Yukon John)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 4 2006, 04:17 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Sorry if I offended you diesel, that wasn't my intent. I was trying to use a bit of humor and keep the discussion light and fun. As far as my weight goes, I was 181 last summer and since I got into rowing in August I lost the weight you mentioned. I did this on purpose. I like the feeling of being light and wirey. I don't like getting on a bike or going for a run with an extra 15 lbs. I don't need. My fat % hovers between 8-10%. But to each there own, you like being a big guy and I prefer having the build of a triathalete. Neither is better, just different. <br /><br />As Francois mentioned, soy is a staple in the far east and has been for around for more than 2500 years. People on a traditional diet in that area have almost no heart disease, or strokes, osteoperosis and the cancer rate is way lower then western diets. Of course it's not just soy that is responsible for less disease. My personal belief (and this is just me) is that there are few foods that are actually bad for you and the more varied your diet the healthier you'll be.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hey John, no probs, I didn't take offense, I was busting your chops. Bodyweight takes into account a lot of components and not just muscle. But if you are going to row lightweight at 6 feet take a look at Elia Luini or Ebbesen - lean but rather muscular - that's what you want. It's good to hear that you weren't one of those guys so obsessed with getting under the 165 barrier that they starve themselves - so you see this spindly, paunchy "lightweights" with negative power. <br /><br />As to the Eastern diet - I personally don't think it has anything to do with soy or animal protein. The real culprit is processed, refined sugars. Animal protein alone won't kill you - however when you combine animal protein with refined sugars - ouch - that's like a hormonal nuclear bomb! with all sorts of toxic, nasty side effects. Notice how the rise in Western obesity and all it's related diseases is marching in lockstep with the continued refinement of sugar-laden food in this country. Notice how the Europeans - who probably eat a more fat-laden diet than we here in North America, remain lean in comparison. The reason - they are generally more active and their diet while high in fat - is high in good fat and rather low in refined sugars. Now, even in Europe, the alarm is sounding at the increasing girth of many Europeans - particularly in the bigger cities as the American fast food companies are beginning to take hold over there. <br /><br />Just as you site Eastern cultures I could also site pre historic mean who were very lean and muscular and lived on animal protein and whatever they picked off of trees for substinence. I could also site classical history where Tacitus, Caesar and other spoke of the Gallic/Germanic "giants" that the relatively smaller Romans had to go up against. It turns out that these Northern European tribes lived on animal protein, vs. the more conventionally agrarian diet of the common Mediterranean farmer. Many anthropologists think this may be a factor in the height/ weight disparity between these peoples. <br /><br />But yes, moderation is key - but at this point, I personally don't feel like taking the risk with my boys if you know what I mean. It's not like I eat steak everyday - I pretty much live on chicken and fish - but I'll be damned if tofu isn't some nasty stuff. But hey, if you like it - knock yourself out!! <br /><br /><br /><!--quoteo(post=58490:date=Mar 4 2006, 10:26 PM:name=John McClellan)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John McClellan @ Mar 4 2006, 10:26 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br /><br />I was the same weight that I'm back at now. I feel good about that and it fits with the activities I've chosen to do. It seems that for long distance activities, there is a fine balance between having larger muscles and increased strength and having less strength and less bulk. It seems that the longer the distance (depending on the activity) the advantage lies with less weight. Even in mountaineering, where you would think that strength would be at a premium, most good climbers were light in weight, but strong for their size. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Of course - basic physics and thermodynamics in action. Mountain climbing, Tour de France moutain stages are the epitome of height/weight/strength ratio. I for one am too tall to be a good climber - even if I had an ectomorphic build and were strong as an ox - I would still be at a disadvantage. Overcoming gravity and the distance of my limbs is much easier the more compact you are. <br /> <br /><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I've been the same weight since my junior year in high school. Swam through college, lifted lots of weights, got stronger, never gained any weight. Some bodies build muscle mass, some don't. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />This is untrue. If you eat enough and subject your muscles to sufficient overload you will build muscle mass. The body is a beautiful mechanism that way. <br /><br />Ectomorphs who complain of this usually THINK they are eating a lot - but in reality they are not, and come nowhere near having a caloric surplus sufficient enough to build mass. <br /><br />Remember resting metabolic rate is only the jumping off point. You also have to factor - activity level, thermic effect of food, exercise intensity - and then you only have a ballpark figure that you may still have to add calories to. For most ectomorphs I've trained with - they usually have to eat more than 2xRMR and drop all cardiovascular activity (save for a light maintenance jog once or twice a week) to even sniff new muscle mass and make some serious strength gains.

[[old] johnmcclellan]

<!--quoteo(post=58497:date=Mar 5 2006, 12:14 AM:name=DIESEL)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Mar 5 2006, 12:14 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quoteo(post=58462:date=Mar 4 2006, 04:17 PM:name=Yukon John)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 4 2006, 04:17 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><!--quoteo(post=58490:date=Mar 4 2006, 10:26 PM:name=John McClellan)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John McClellan @ Mar 4 2006, 10:26 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />I've been the same weight since my junior year in high school. Swam through college, lifted lots of weights, got stronger, never gained any weight. Some bodies build muscle mass, some don't. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />This is untrue. If you eat enough and subject your muscles to sufficient overload you will build muscle mass. The body is a beautiful mechanism that way. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You are right - I exaggerated. I even gained a little weight when I started using the erg. But I think there has been some other hyperbole on this thread, don't you think?<br /><br /><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>For most ectomorphs I've trained with - they usually have to eat more than 2xRMR and drop all cardiovascular activity (save for a light maintenance jog once or twice a week) to even sniff new muscle mass and make some serious strength gains.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Which I think proves the point (admittedly exaggerated) I was making about some bodies not building muscle mass. If I my objective in college was improving my swimming, which involved 4 hours a day in the pool, plus 45 min of weights, dropping nearly all cardio activity in order to sniff new muscle mass would have been extremely counter productive. But I could still out lift a lot of larger hockey players, and more than a few football players. Muscle mass is only one part of functional strength. Now I'm doing 600km bike rides - I don't think I should stop cardio training so I can gain some muscle mass which wouldn't improve my performance in those.<br /><br />But except for the view of potential harm caused by soy, I think we are on same page on the nutrition stuff.<br />

[[old] widgeon]

Doesn't look like many women have jumped in on this discussion. My own experience with soy protein supplements included longer duration and significant increase in both premenstual bloating and breast pain. I stopped the soy and now use whey protein. I am much more comfortable and actually feel like my post strenuous workout recovery is better with whey. Not too scientific since I didn't make any measurements, though reproducibly experienced many months with a predictable, <u>very</u> miserable week while on soy. I'll stick with whey protein.<br /><br />Pam<br />

[[old] Steelhead]

<!--quoteo(post=58447:date=Mar 4 2006, 11:41 AM:name=FrancoisA)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Mar 4 2006, 11:41 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->men eating soy... how unfortunate. <br /><br />1. it's a shitty protein - really shitty - read here: I as a man, like having nice high-Testosterone levels - that is what makes us "men" in a biological sense - oh yeah, it's also a big factor in what keeps us looking younger..<br /><br />2. if you're not a vegan/vegetarian then why the h*** would you even waste your time with this crap? Unless being scrawny and weak are appealing to you that is... </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Soy has been a basic staple in Oriental diet, yet fertility has not been a problem for them, and they are certainly not on the verge of extinction! <br /><br />I am not sure about the testosterone of this fellow, but he looks pretty strong! <br /><br /><img src="http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/ ... okuni2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /><br /> </td></tr></table><br />I lived in Japan for two and a half years, and these guys don't rely on soy protein -- they eat meat.<br /><br />How Much Soy Do Asians Really Eat?<br /><br />Those who dare to question the benefits of soy tend to receive one stock answer: Soy foods couldn't possibly have a downside because Asians eat large quantities of soy every day and consequently remain free of most western diseases. In fact, the people of China, Japan, and other countries in Asia eat very little soy. The soy industry's own figures show that soy consumption in China, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan ranges from 9.3 to 36 grams per day.1 That's grams of soy food, not grams of soy protein alone. Compare this with a cup of tofu (252 grams) or soy milk (240 grams).2 Many Americans today think nothing of consuming a cup of tofu, a couple glasses of soy milk, handfuls of soy nuts, soy "energy bars," and veggie burgers. Infants on soy formula receive the most of all, both in quantity and in proportion to body weight.<br /><br />In short, there is no historical precedent for eating the large amounts of soy food now being consumed by infants fed soy formula and vegetarians who favor soy as their main source of protein, or for the large amounts of soy being recommended by Dr. Andrew Weil, Dr. Christiane Northrup, and many other popular health experts.<br /><br />What's more, the rural poor in China have never seen-let alone feasted on-soy sausages, chili made with Textured Vegetable Protein (TVP), tofu cheesecake, packaged soy milk, soy "energy bars," or other newfangled soy products that have infiltrated the American marketplace.<br /><br />The ancient Chinese honored the soybean with the name "the yellow jewel" but used it as "green manure"-a cover crop plowed under to enrich the soil. Soy did not become human food until late in the Chou Dynasty (1134-246 B.C.), when the Chinese developed a fermentation process to make soybean paste, best known today by its Japanese name, miso.3 Soy sauce-the natural type sold under the Japanese name shoyu-began as the liquid poured off during the production of miso. Two other popular fermented soy foods, natto and tempeh, entered the food supply around 1000 A.D. or later in Japan and Indonesia, respectively.<br /><br />Tofu came after miso. Legend has it that, in 164 B.C., Lord Liu An of Huai-nan, China-a renowned alchemist, meditator, and ruler-discovered that a purée of cooked soybeans could be precipitated with nigari (a form of magnesium chloride found in seawater) into solid cakes, called tofu. In Japan, as in China, tofu was rarely served as a main course anywhere except in monasteries. Its most popular use was-and is-as a few bland little blocks in miso soup or fish stock.<br /><br />The Chinese almost never ate boiled or baked soybeans or cooked with soy flour except in times of famine. Modern soy products such as soy protein isolate (SPI), TVP, soy-protein concentrate, and other soy-protein products made using high-tech industrial processes, were unknown in Asia until after World War II.4<br /><br />Contrary to popular belief, neither soy milk nor soy infant formula is traditional in Asia. Soy milk originated as a byproduct of the process of making tofu; the earliest reference to it as a beverage appeared in 1866.5 By the 1920s and 1930s, it was popular in Asia as an occasional drink served to the elderly.6-8 The first person to manufacture soy milk in China was actually an American-Harry Miller, a Seventh Day Adventist physician and missionary.9<br /><br />The first soy infant formulas in China were developed in the 1930s and have never been widely used.10-14 Today, babies in Asia are almost always breastfed for at least the first six months, then switched to a dairy-based infant formula. Orphans and others who cannot be breastfed by a wet nurse are fed from birth on dairy formulas.15<br /><br />Claims that soybeans have been a major part of the Asian diet for more than 3,000 years, or from "time immemorial," are simply not true. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.mothering.com/articles/growi ... story.html" target="_blank">http://www.mothering.com/articles/growi ... ry.html</a> <br /><br />Mike

[[old] Yukon John]

Thanks for the history information Mike, interesting stuff! As mentioned earlier in this thread, there appear to be two camps on the issue of eating soy. Obviously, I like the stuff so I'm biased towards the pro side. I wish that the information was only one sided, then it would be easier to decide whether it is beneficial to eat or not. Diesel gave us lots of information that he found on the negative side of the issue (thanks Diesel!) Just to be fair, here is a site that seems to take the opposite view. <a href="http://www.talksoy.com/Health/hSoyAndHeartDisease.htm" target="_blank">http://www.talksoy.com/Health/hSoyAndHe ... ase.htm</a> <br /><br />

[[old] Steelhead]

<!--quoteo(post=58622:date=Mar 6 2006, 09:58 AM:name=Yukon John)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 6 2006, 09:58 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thanks for the history information Mike, interesting stuff! As mentioned earlier in this thread, there appear to be two camps on the issue of eating soy. Obviously, I like the stuff so I'm biased towards the pro side. I wish that the information was only one sided, then it would be easier to decide whether it is beneficial to eat or not. Diesel gave us lots of information that he found on the negative side of the issue (thanks Diesel!) Just to be fair, here is a site that seems to take the opposite view. <a href="http://www.talksoy.com/Health/hSoyAndHeartDisease.htm" target="_blank">http://www.talksoy.com/Health/hSoyAndHe ... htm</a><br /> </td></tr></table><br />There is a lot of controversy vis-a-vis soy. I stopped using soy a few years back because of the controversy.<br /><br />What does everyone think about the protein in brewer's yeast or nutritional yeast? It looks like 4 tablespoons of yeast yields 32 grams of complete protein and an entire panoply of vitamins and minerals, RNA, etc. <br /><br />And of course there is also bee pollen -- although an allergic reaction is not fun (been there, done that -- thought I was going to die for about 10 hours of agonizing pain; moral of the story use bee pollen judiciously).<br /><br />Mike

[[old] rspenger]

<!--quoteo(post=58622:date=Mar 6 2006, 09:58 AM:name=Yukon John)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 6 2006, 09:58 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thanks for the history information Mike, interesting stuff! As mentioned earlier in this thread, there appear to be two camps on the issue of eating soy. Obviously, I like the stuff so I'm biased towards the pro side. I wish that the information was only one sided, then it would be easier to decide whether it is beneficial to eat or not. Diesel gave us lots of information that he found on the negative side of the issue (thanks Diesel!) Just to be fair, here is a site that seems to take the opposite view. <a href="http://www.talksoy.com/Health/hSoyAndHeartDisease.htm" target="_blank">http://www.talksoy.com/Health/hSoyAndHe ... htm</a><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Unfortunately, that information is put out by the United Soy Bean Board, which obviously has a large financial interest in promoting the use of soy beans.<br /><br />Bob S. <br />

[[old] Yukon John]

<!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately, that information is put out by the United Soy Bean Board, which obviously has a large financial interest in promoting the use of soy beans.<br /><br />Bob S. </td></tr></table><br />You are absolutely right Bob. That is been a lot of what the latter part of this thread has been about. Special interest groups support the side of the issue that they will gain from. It's hard for us (the general public) to make an informed decision on issues such as soy, genetically altered foods, diets, the benefits of wonder foods from oat bran to fish when the perception of the products (or eating habits) affects what gets bought (and who gets rich.)

[[old] Steelhead]

<!--quoteo(post=58693:date=Mar 6 2006, 09:46 PM:name=Yukon John)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 6 2006, 09:46 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately, that information is put out by the United Soy Bean Board, which obviously has a large financial interest in promoting the use of soy beans.<br /><br />Bob S. </td></tr></table><br />You are absolutely right Bob. That is been a lot of what the latter part of this thread has been about. Special interest groups support the side of the issue that they will gain from. It's hard for us (the general public) to make an informed decision on issues such as soy, genetically altered foods, diets, the benefits of wonder foods from oat bran to fish when the perception of the products (or eating habits) affects what gets bought (and who gets rich.) <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I agree. Here's one more point of view vis-a-vis soy protein: <a href="http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/ ... 0pusoy.htm" target="_blank">http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/ ... soy.htm</a> <br /><br />Also, can we eat too much protein? Are we being manipulated by those selling protein supplements?<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougal ... erload.htm" target="_blank">http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougal ... oad.htm</a> <br /><br />Mike

[[old] Ben Rea]

<b>"your total daily need for protein is about 20 to 30 grams"</b><br /><br /><br />AHHHHH!, I take in 40-50 grams a day!!!!! Am i going to die?