What Kind Of Fall Racing Series Do We Want?

[[old] FrankJ]

Racers,<br /><br />Looking for as much feedback as possible on a fall series. Please respond to the poll and feel free to add a comment below.<br /><br />Frank

[[old] hennmart]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrankJ+Sep 23 2005, 02:24 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrankJ @ Sep 23 2005, 02:24 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Racers,<br /><br />Looking for as much feedback as possible on a fall series. Please respond to the poll and feel free to add a comment below.<br /><br />Frank <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hallo Frank,<br /><br />Good idea; maybe the 500 meter, 30 and 60minutes also?<br /><br />Hennie

[[old] jfisher]

I'd also like to see the timed events in the series. The handicap racing was OK and it helped get some first timers to race, but it was really hard on anyone who has been working hard and is near their best.<br /><br />I's also like to see a limit on the amount of handicap given. Mabe 90% of the max difference. That would make things even out a little better.<br /><br />Jeff

[[old] Nigel]

Maybe just use the best 8 from 10 scores to count so that you can still compete in the league if you have to miss a race ?<br /><br />Nigel.<br /><br />

[[old] Roland Baltutis]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrankJ+Sep 22 2005, 07:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrankJ @ Sep 22 2005, 07:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Racers,<br /><br />Looking for as much feedback as possible on a fall series. Please respond to the poll and feel free to add a comment below.<br /><br />Frank <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You won't see me entering any handicap races. It's too unfair on the faster ergers. I'm also not into risking a PB effort that can't be ranked. I'd rather race head to head with the fast guys. If the "slow pokes" can't keep up, too bad.<br /><br />Like other sports you could set up grades based on season PBs. Hence everyone has a chance of being a winner in their respective grade (A,B,C etc ). There should be no distinction between light and heavyweights, age or sex. Group people by ability only.<br /><br />In order to participate I would need races set at GMT 6 to 8. That would make it 4 to 6 pm for me and mid morning in places like Holland. I don't mind racing with the dutchmen as some of them are quite good.<br /><br />Roland Baltutis<br /><br />P.S. I recently did a 3 X 2000m workout with the dutch guys and really enjoyed it.

[[old] Shanners]

<!--QuoteBegin-Roland Baltutis+Sep 25 2005, 05:53 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Roland Baltutis @ Sep 25 2005, 05:53 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-FrankJ+Sep 22 2005, 07:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrankJ @ Sep 22 2005, 07:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Racers,<br /><br />Looking for as much feedback as possible on a fall series. Please respond to the poll and feel free to add a comment below.<br /><br />Frank <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You won't see me entering any handicap races. It's too unfair on the faster ergers. I'm also not into risking a PB effort that can't be ranked. I'd rather race head to head with the fast guys. If the "slow pokes" can't keep up, too bad.<br /><br />Like other sports you could set up grades based on season PBs. Hence everyone has a chance of being a winner in their respective grade (A,B,C etc ). There should be no distinction between light and heavyweights, age or sex. Group people by ability only.<br /><br />In order to participate I would need races set at GMT 6 to 8. That would make it 4 to 6 pm for me and mid morning in places like Holland. I don't mind racing with the dutchmen as some of them are quite good.<br /><br />Roland Baltutis<br /><br />P.S. I recently did a 3 X 2000m workout with the dutch guys and really enjoyed it. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /><br />Some very direct and valid comments regarding the poll on an autumn series. Well done Roland, just the sort of comments to stimulate a debate.<br /><br />I think that 'fast guys' like Roland, who obviously need a very specific set of motivators should sort themselves out and that the series organisers take care to ensure that the appeal of the event reaches the wider fraternity.<br /><br />I am a slow poke at the moment having returned to erging after a long layoff. I would welcome any series of races this autumn as I will approach the training mindfully and enjoy the company of all other rowers.

[[old] FrankJ]

<!--QuoteBegin-Roland Baltutis+Sep 25 2005, 03:53 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Roland Baltutis @ Sep 25 2005, 03:53 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-FrankJ+Sep 22 2005, 07:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrankJ @ Sep 22 2005, 07:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Racers,<br /><br />Looking for as much feedback as possible on a fall series. Please respond to the poll and feel free to add a comment below.<br /><br />Frank <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You won't see me entering any handicap races. It's too unfair on the faster ergers. I'm also not into risking a PB effort that can't be ranked. I'd rather race head to head with the fast guys. If the "slow pokes" can't keep up, too bad.<br /><br />Like other sports you could set up grades based on season PBs. Hence everyone has a chance of being a winner in their respective grade (A,B,C etc ). There should be no distinction between light and heavyweights, age or sex. Group people by ability only.<br /><br />In order to participate I would need races set at GMT 6 to 8. That would make it 4 to 6 pm for me and mid morning in places like Holland. I don't mind racing with the dutchmen as some of them are quite good.<br /><br />Roland Baltutis<br /><br />P.S. I recently did a 3 X 2000m workout with the dutch guys and really enjoyed it. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Roland,<br /><br />Good points. In another thread someone has suggested that the handicap races not be set not on PBs or SBs but on a target chosen by each racer. Everyone has to stay on their chosen pace or slower until the last 1000 meters and then go for it if you want. The series would also alternate a handicap and straight race with the handicap getting only appearance points. Seems like a good way to have both type of events in one series.<br /><br />As far as races set in time based classes there are still problems with the system. The way they were set in Supercanoa was everyone with a PB in the same minute raced each other. The nasty thing in that system was if you let yourself improve too much you end up just into a minute where you stand little chance of improving. If fact I was berated by Marilyn for being stupid enough for letting my PB slip below 22 minutes. As a 60-69 year old my SB for the 6K is 21:50.4 the best time in the last 5 years for a 60-69 rower is 21:25.8 so I would really have to do a great race to beat someone in my time group who could potentially do times in the low 21s. <br /><br />How do we handle that situation? One thought is using something like the Nonathlon scoring system. What are your thoughts on this?<br /><br />As far as start times we let individuals host races any time they want on the race weekend with the only stipulation being that at least one other racer need to be in the race. That's pretty flexible. <br /><br />Frank

[[old] Pieter]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrankJ+Sep 22 2005, 07:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrankJ @ Sep 22 2005, 07:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Racers,<br /><br />Looking for as much feedback as possible on a fall series. Please respond to the poll and feel free to add a comment below.<br /><br />Frank <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Frank,<br /><br />For Europe (including UK ) Autumn is the time of year all the big indoorraces are being held.<br />Some short distance races would help to get a good preparation.<br /><br />I agree with Roland about the handicap races. It will be more challenging to make an A, B, C..etc race. (Allthough Handicapraces are fun to do. A close finish is rare and that's where you're hoping for being in a handicap race)<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Pieter

[[old] holm188]

Hi,<br />I did not take part in the last handicap races but would like to join in the future. So these are some thoughts from other experiences.<br /><br />There are two different points in these races:<br /><br />one is the predicted or expected time vs. the actual time which will give the points in the handicap series.<br /><br />the second is the actual race with or without handicap or by grouping faster and less fast ergers. Actually in a race some could agree on handicaps if they are not looking for a PB or not within the requirement for verification and others could just start at time zero.<br /><br />from the first point however the race is done the points can be awarded, from the second it leaves some freedom for the more competitive ones (understand fast ones).<br /><br />I raced Andreas in a marathon recently and although his pace was about 18 seconds faster than mine it was still motivating to try to keep him within reasonable distance, i.e. less than 6000m (ahead) of me. I have also raced handicap races where ergers ended up 1 minutes over 5k ahead of me, although I beat my PB it did not add to the motivation to have it as a handicap race!<br /><br />Hope that helps and looking forward to do some handi races (in November)<br /><br />Holm<br />

[[old] bmoore]

Frank,<br /><br />Now that I've actually done an online workout, I'll add a thought or two. (Although I haven't done a handicap race yet).<br /><br />Can we score the teams based on total time? SBs would be submitted, and teams would be formed so that the average times are all about the same. Teams would be switched up every weekend. Each person gets the score from that race and would carry the score forward to the next weekend for their new team and the next race. (This is a preliminary thought, and I don't have the details worked out, but it's something for discussion).<br /><br />Teams could have 3 or 4 rowers. The lowest 2 scores would be dropped. I'd have to figure out how to handle no-shows. (Averaging the remaining times would encourage slower rowers to conveniently "no-show"). Perhaps we'd reallocate rowers.<br /><br />Anyway, any thoughts on this? (I got this from a round-robin volleyball tournament I played in 2 years ago).

[[old] FrankJ]

<!--QuoteBegin-bmoore+Sep 25 2005, 03:58 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(bmoore @ Sep 25 2005, 03:58 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frank,<br /><br />Now that I've actually done an online workout, I'll add a thought or two.  (Although I haven't done a handicap race yet).<br /><br />Can we score the teams based on total time?  SBs would be submitted, and teams would be formed so that the average times are all about the same.  Teams would be switched up every weekend.  Each person gets the score from that race and would carry the score forward to the next weekend for their new team and the next race.  (This is a preliminary thought, and I don't have the details worked out, but it's something for discussion).<br /><br />Teams could have 3 or 4 rowers.  The lowest 2 scores would be dropped.  I'd have to figure out how to handle no-shows.  (Averaging the remaining times would encourage slower rowers to conveniently "no-show").  Perhaps we'd reallocate rowers.<br /><br />Anyway, any thoughts on this?  (I got this from a round-robin volleyball tournament I played in 2 years ago). <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Bill,<br /><br />My thought was that we would avoid teams entirely. The summer series was a team event but for some of the teams it was more or less one individual. There were many issues with teams and I'd just like to skip all of those headaches.<br /><br />Frank

[[old] Thomas]

The couple of times I have done the handicapping I have found great disparity in what someone said they were going to do as opposed to this fanstatic end result. I really don't like it when I am doing something like a 12k and lose by 500 meters. It shouldn't be that a person says they are going to row X as a pace and then wind up rowing X-10 for a pace. Something like that over 12k would mean I would have to row 1:38's. I am just not interested.<br /><br />When I get time, I will comment further.<br /><br />

[[old] Canoeist]

Racing handicap races doesn't work well with me. I am on the downward slope of age/performance while others are new and improving quickly.<br /><br />Racing a Nonathalon score works fairly well. Paul H. has done a fine job of finding out how fast a person should row given a certain age/gender/weight.<br /><br />Racing a sliding scale for weight works fairly good too if someone wants to do some math calculating performance for weights other than 165 and 220 pounds.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Paul Flack

[[old] holm188]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Racing a Nonathalon score works fairly well. Paul H. has done a fine job of finding out how fast a person should row given a certain age/gender/weight.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The Nonathlon seems to be a quite well recognized and accepted scoring system among erg users. If races are done for distances like 2k up to 10k, then the best N score from these distances can be used to calculate the potential time for all others (my best N score is 882 for 5k so using 882 I can calculate my potential 2k, 6k and 10k time) and use these as targets. This is still infavor of beginning ergers than those with excellent PBs, but at least a good score for one distance affects all others.

[[old] holm188]

<!--QuoteBegin-Canoeist+Sep 26 2005, 04:26 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Canoeist @ Sep 26 2005, 04:26 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Racing a sliding scale for weight works fairly good too if someone wants to do some math calculating performance for weights other than 165 and 220 pounds.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />C2 gives the following formula (w/77.27)^(2/9) with w in kg. That could do it.