Concept2 Forum

When introduced the PM4 was an excellent monitor. Then isn't now. While there may be a place for the PM4 in such places as gyms, the world has moved on. Small processors, memory and screens are inexpensive and smartphones and tablets are proliferating. The limitations of the PM4 are too many to name but most seem ridiculous in today's high technology savvy world. Why should we be limited to 30 intervals in Custom and Favorite workouts? Why shouldn't we be able to create workouts on a separate device and monitor the workout on that device? Why can't it understand intervals and provide the interval data versus just lumping rest and exercise time together? Many companies are moving the computation and input and output of their equipment to apps on Android and IOS devices. I can control my stereo, Sonos and Logitech Squeezebox, via my iPhone, I can monitor power output, speed, distance, cadence and much more on my iPhone while riding my bike (I can even make a phone call -- albeit a bad idea.) Even many Bluetooth headsets are managed and controlled by the attached smartphone. I have to believe that developing software for the Concept2 would be a lot less expensive and lower risk that developing a custom piece of hardware and software, like the PM4. Using ANT+ or even Bluetooth and transmitting Power, SPM to an external IOS or Android device to do the calculations, display and logging should be a lot simpler to develop and implement. Heart rate isn't needed since the smartphone should be able to capture the heart rate directly.

I'm sure it is not as simple as I make it, but the industry is heading in that direction and it seems our Ergs should be too.

This has already got a thread going...

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11243

mrpiii wrote:Why can't it understand intervals and provide the interval data versus just lumping rest and exercise time together? I can monitor power output, speed, distance, cadence and much more on my iPhone while riding my bike (I can even make a phone call -- albeit a bad idea.)

You are asking for more advanced data recording, workouts, analysis, etc. That takes hardware and software. I think you can do a lot of that now with ANT+ and Garmin, maybe Suunto.

You can kick up your data collection by adding almost any Garmin ANT+ watch to record your workout PM4 data HR,speed,watts,SPM. It splits work and rest into separate laps. The Garmin Connect software is free and a little simple, does not total work/rest or even know the diff. There are several other software options that will take the data and do a lot more advanced things with it.

The most basic is the $140 Garmin FR70, it has no GPS. It always comes with a HR strap. I've only had it for a week but like it and think its worth having. You may still be able to get an FR60 for $99 w/o strap, or there were bundles with a premium strap. The FR70 has a nicer band, the FR60 band breaks (not a problem for row/ski where I don't wear it)

All the other Garmin's have a GPS so cost $200+. The biking $250 Edge 500 and $450 Edge 800 are interesting options. They have such big screens they can show a lot of data, like a cool HR graph. They have bigger buttons then watches, but sadly rowing and skiing take both hands.

They can program various workouts. The Edge 800 can program interval worksouts (not in Edge 500). I think those can work with C2 ANT+ feed, but I'm not sure. So you could possibly program workout into the Edge, record with Edge, just use PM as a big display. There is Garmin Training Center software, don't know anything about it but I would guess its where you can program your workout.

Here's an 800 review, he has reviews of everythng Garmin that are pretty good.
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garm ... -look.html

The advanced running watches like the 610 also support workouts and I think Intervals. Small buttons and smaller display then Edge so harder to use for row/ski.

On the UK site Butch91's blog of workouts usually has links to his Garmin Connect and Suunto pages:
http://concept2.co.uk/forum/blog.php?u=11819
One workout http://connect.garmin.com/activity/160762442

After writing this you've got me interested into looking into the Edge 800 in much more detail. Paying for color mapping and GPS is a waste for row/ski, but its the only way to get big display, big buttons and workouts.

All good points -- the new Garmin 910XT might be a good option too -- but all those options require an outlay of substantial money -- we already paid a lot to get a PM4 - suspect a firmware upgrade would be all it needs to transmit much more data via its ANT+ interface. It is time for it to move to the 21st century and enable data exchange with smartphones and tablets. As someone said in one post, there are lots of talented App developers who could develop some interesting Apps with the data.

mrpiii wrote:suspect a firmware upgrade would be all it needs to transmit much more data via its ANT+ interface.

That's already available in the latest beta firmware for PM4.

mrpiii wrote:All good points -- the new Garmin 910XT might be a good option too -- but all those options require an outlay of substantial money -- we already paid a lot to get a PM4 - suspect a firmware upgrade would be all it needs to transmit much more data via its ANT+ interface. It is time for it to move to the 21st century and enable data exchange with smartphones and tablets. As someone said in one post, there are lots of talented App developers who could develop some interesting Apps with the data.

I updated PM4 firmware last week. There were 2 Beta choices, I think I have loaded the newest Beta. I'm using a new Garmin FR70.

The Rower sends HR, Pace, Power (Watts) and Cadence (SPM).

The SkiErg sends HR and Pace, but it does NOT send Power nor SPM. The Rower and SkiErg have different PM4 software. I think I have SE 707 build 0. I emailed Scott.

mrpiii wrote: Why can't it understand intervals and provide the interval data versus just lumping rest and exercise time together?

Yes Rest and Work are recorded together, for me it records Rest in the workout as a separate lap. Maybe some software allows deleting those laps, you can't in Garmin Connect so it does affect averages.

A bug is during Rest the Power and SPM are shown as flat lines = to the last value pulled at the end of the work interval, but the Pace is correctly recorded as what I pulled during the Active Rest interval. I emailed Scott. I think if during Rest you let the flywheel stop then the recording stops.

mrpiii wrote: Small processors, memory and screens are inexpensive and smartphones and tablets are proliferating. The limitations of the PM4 are too many to name but most seem ridiculous in today's high technology savvy world. Many companies are moving the computation and input and output of their equipment to apps on Android and IOS devices. I can monitor power output, speed, distance, cadence and much more on my iPhone while riding my bike I have to believe that developing software for the Concept2 would be a lot less expensive and lower risk that developing a custom piece of hardware and software, like the PM4. Using ANT+ or even Bluetooth and transmitting Power, SPM to an external IOS or Android device to do the calculations, display and logging should be a lot simpler to develop and implement. Heart rate isn't needed since the smartphone should be able to capture the heart rate directly.

PM4 right now implements "ANT+ in the Gym". It's pretty cool and useful. Bit of a pain to have to link with it before each workout. It does send cadence and power but a lot of advanced devices do not take that protocol. While the FR70 records power, and Garmin Connect takes it, you can't do the moving power averages like you can with a true power meter (or I don't know how to do it).

I think if C2 supported the PM4 broadcasting its data as a Power Meter and Speed/Cadence sensor that would allow lots of cool stuff. So with the Edge 800 you link it to the PM4 "sensors", just like you would link it to those sensors on your bike. Now rowing your data can go to Garmin 610, or Edge 800, or Cycleops meter, or Wahoo key based ANT+ software. No linking before each workout. It would work just like using the watch/device on your bike linked to bike sensors.

carlb wrote:I think if C2 supported the PM4 broadcasting its data as a Power Meter and Speed/Cadence sensor that would allow lots of cool stuff.

Another cool thing if the PM4 functioned as a broadcasting sensor is you can link multiple watches/devices to receive the data. So you have a Garmin 610 watch, you can buy an Edge for your bike and have them both linked to the PM4 at the same time.

Here's an article that hits on the tons of data and analysis an Edge 800 can do:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2011/10/garm ... right.html

You could also link power hub computers to the PM4 like the CycleOps:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2011/02/cycl ... et-in.html
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/02/cycl ... depth.html

I would tend to buy more bike related stuff if I could use it with rower and skierg too. The Edge 800 supoprts 5 bike configurations (i.e. bike sensor link setups) so it would be no hassel to set it up for road bike, mtn bike, rower and skierg.