upgrade from PM1 to PM2 or PM3

rlholtz · Post by **rlholtz** » January 17th, 2008, 2:42 pm

Hello:

I've had a B since 93. I am going to upgrade the PM1. Should I go with the 2 or the 3? I'm not planning on hooking up to a computer or use a heart rate monitor.

One other question: When I upgrade will I have greater motivation to keep up the training what with the added features?

Oh, and one more question: All my equipment is the original except for a roller. What else should I upgrade.

Thank you kindly

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » January 17th, 2008, 3:14 pm

That's a tough question, You would probably like a Handle upgrade. It takes a while to get used to the new handle but I found out recently, when switching back for a week, that I had finally acclimated to the new handle and prefer it.

If C2 has any "speed rings" left, it is a nice way to get a more reasonable Drag Factor out of a B.

As for the monitor, I don't know of any way it can provide more motivation, unless you like complex workouts programmed in to follow, or like to race yourself in the form of the Pace boat feature. I've had a couple athletes that will do everything to stay ahead of that darn pace boat, so just set it a little agressive and they up their game accordingly.

Replace parts as needed, but it sounds like you haven't needed to do that much. The B is probably the most indestructable of all the Erg Models.

Ducatista · Post by **Ducatista** » January 17th, 2008, 6:59 pm

I upgraded to a PM2 for my early Model C a few years ago, and I've been happy with it. Connectivity sounded appealing, but PC-only was a PM3 deal killer for me.

I do get extra motivation from the newer monitor: on long, easy, boring rows, I like to set the display to Cals (the finest scale) and see how many strokes in a row I can hold 666 on the monitor. The PM1 apparently displayed Cals in discrete jumps, because I never, ever saw 666 on the monitor.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » January 17th, 2008, 7:14 pm

Definitely get the pm2, as the pm3/4 is c***.

DragFactor · Post by **DragFactor** » January 18th, 2008, 8:12 am

I put a speed ring (still available), D handle and PM3 on my B. I like being able to read drag factor, also see average split on long pieces, which my PM1 couldn't do. I also upload to web log book via USB - so easy!

Steve.

rowland · Post by **rowland** » January 18th, 2008, 12:28 pm

Definitely get the pm2, as the pm3/4 is c***.

I don't know what C*** means

I just upgrade a pm2 to a pm3 which I like much better. for the features that others have mentioned.

I just figured out what "c***" means. John, you are not going to make any friends at concept2 posting words about their products like that!

John if C*** means what I think it does, why don't you sell your "D" and find a used "C" on craigs list that's in excellent condition. If you don't like the pm2, get rid of it. I can assure you the pm3 or pm4 is here to stay.

Why be continually unhappy rowing with the pm3 and complain about it constantly. 99% of the people that have a pm3 like it, you are the 1% that doesn't like it.
Maybe it would be possible to get a used "c' and switch fly wheels and the pm2 to your D and sell the 'c' with the "d" fly wheel and the pm3. Then you would have just the erg you want. You would be a happy rower again!
Maybe someone at C2 would even help you do the swap, if you stopped bad mouthing the pm3. It would be worth it to them.

By the way I saw a model C listed yesterday in the san diego craigs list area for $400.00 dollars, used only a few times.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » January 18th, 2008, 12:47 pm

rowland wrote:
Definitely get the pm2, as the pm3/4 is c***.
I don't know what C*** means

I just upgrade a pm2 to a pm3 which I like much better. for the features that others have mentioned.

I just figured out what "c***" means. John, you are not going to make any friends at concept2 posting words about their products like that!

John if C*** means what I think it does, why don't you sell your "D" and find a used "C" on craigs list that's in excellent condition. If you don't like the pm2, get rid of it. I can assure you the pm3 or pm4 is here to stay.

Why be continually unhappy rowing with the pm3 and complain about it constantly. 99% of the people that have a pm3 like it, you are the 1% that doesn't like it.
Maybe it would be possible to get a used "c' and switch fly wheels and the pm2 to your D and sell the 'c' with the "d" fly wheel and the pm3. Then you would have just the erg you want. You would be a happy rower again!
Maybe someone at C2 would even help you do the swap, if you stopped bad mouthing the pm3. It would be worth it to them.

By the way I saw a model C listed yesterday in the san diego craigs list area for $400.00 dollars, used only a few times.

Don't play the silly game with John, he's just acting the cunning runt.

wbulr · Post by **wbulr** » January 19th, 2008, 3:28 pm

I also have a B with a PM1 and would like to upgrade. After reading this post I'm not sure which one I want. Where do you buy them? Would anyone on this site have a PM2 they would want to part with?
Is the conversion hard to do? How often should the rollers and shock cords be replaced? I'm sure mine is all original and most likely needs a 'tune up'

Also -what is a 'speed ring?'

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » January 19th, 2008, 5:17 pm

wbulr wrote:I also have a B with a PM1 and would like to upgrade. After reading this post I'm not sure which one I want. Where do you buy them? Would anyone on this site have a PM2 they would want to part with?
Is the conversion hard to do? How often should the rollers and shock cords be replaced? I'm sure mine is all original and most likely needs a 'tune up'

Also -what is a 'speed ring?'

You'd need to get a pm2 from someone who has one they're not using. Being in high demand, they are hard to find.

I would imagine the conversion to a pm3/4 is not worth the trouble. In lieu of getting a pm3/4, I'd upgrade to a newer machine with newer monitor, though the B is probably the best C2 model thus far. The only issue is it's a bit imbalanced to the front, but you can remedy this by putting some weights on the back. By upgrading to a newer model you'll come out better financially.

I rowed more than 24 million meters on the model B and the rollers were still fine. I did replace the shock cord around 18? million or so, but it was still working fine. If the handle is not staying to the cage by itself, the cord is easy to adjust and make sure that it does. The problem with a new shock cord is that it is -very- tight compared to the one that is well broken in.

A speed ring is a home made damper that you add to the fan side of the cage. You can cut a ring out of black roofing paper and attack it with plastic ties, as I did, or use cardboard, rubber from a truck tire innertube, a towel, or anything else that restricts the air flow going in. My favorite was the black roofing paper as it was easy to cut and looked fantastic on the erg.

The speed ring adjusts and lightens the range of resistances, so they are in line with the resistances from the later erg models.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » January 19th, 2008, 7:04 pm

wbulr wrote:I also have a B with a PM1 and would like to upgrade. After reading this post I'm not sure which one I want. Where do you buy them? Would anyone on this site have a PM2 they would want to part with?
Is the conversion hard to do? How often should the rollers and shock cords be replaced? I'm sure mine is all original and most likely needs a 'tune up'

Also -what is a 'speed ring?'

A Speed Ring is the outermost circle of material on the adjustment vanes, and while it could be 'home made', C2 implements the genuine article quite well.

The Additional accessory illustrated is the CBreeze, or as it is called for the Model B, "The Hurricane".

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » January 19th, 2008, 7:18 pm

This speed ring in the photo was made with rubber from a discarded truck tire innertube, that also goes around the perimeter.

rlholtz · Post by **rlholtz** » January 23rd, 2008, 2:46 pm

So my new PM3, handle, footplates, etc., etc., should arrive Friday. I know I'll be able to see drag factor now, but since it's associated with a B, what if any correction factors will I have to make to make it directly comparable to later models?

Also, since the newer handle allows for a slightly extended arm pull, will I necessarilly see a slightly lower split?

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » January 23rd, 2008, 6:21 pm

You'll need to change to a 14 tooth cogwheel. It's only a couple bucks, and takes an hour or two for the change.

How much for the things that you ordered?

DragFactor · Post by **DragFactor** » January 24th, 2008, 6:14 am

No absolute need to change cog wheel, I haven't. It depends on what you're trying to achieve. Drag factor is drag factor, regardless of cog wheel. What will feel different is the force you put on the handle since your cogs are different sizes on the B. On my B I use the 15 cog and set drag to 130 on the PM3, That feels like 120 on a 14 tooth cog, on the pull.

Of course the flywheel is still slowing down like its on drag 130, so we haven't made things entirely equivalent, but the feel of 120 at the handle is what I'm after. As far as I can see from the physics, from which we know that cog wheel changes do not affect power (but they do affect how it feels to apply the power, i.e. force, handle speed), we can simply use 15/14 = 1.07 as the correction factor, so 120 becomes 130 give or take a bit. Close enough for me.

In terms of reassuring yourself that the measured splits will be right: The PM4/3/2/1 measure the power, yet have no idea about cog sizes, the PM just gives you a split based on flywheel deceleration. So, that's the clue - deceleration - how could the cog size matter?

HTH,
Steve.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » January 24th, 2008, 10:58 am

DragFactor wrote:No absolute need to change cog wheel, I haven't. It depends on what you're trying to achieve. Drag factor is drag factor, regardless of cog wheel. What will feel different is the force you put on the handle since your cogs are different sizes on the B. On my B I use the 15 cog and set drag to 130 on the PM3, That feels like 120 on a 14 tooth cog, on the pull.

Of course the flywheel is still slowing down like its on drag 130, so we haven't made things entirely equivalent, but the feel of 120 at the handle is what I'm after. As far as I can see from the physics, from which we know that cog wheel changes do not affect power (but they do affect how it feels to apply the power, i.e. force, handle speed), we can simply use 15/14 = 1.07 as the correction factor, so 120 becomes 130 give or take a bit. Close enough for me.

In terms of reassuring yourself that the measured splits will be right: The PM4/3/2/1 measure the power, yet have no idea about cog sizes, the PM just gives you a split based on flywheel deceleration. So, that's the clue - deceleration - how could the cog size matter?

HTH,
Steve.

Cog size only matters for the conversion of DF relativity, as you have mentioned.

What the PM should do is give you a split based on the acceleration of the flywheel on each drive energy input/stroke time (Joules/Sec = Watts) converted to Pace. What it does, is calculates Watts based on the Joules being dissipated by the flywheel during the stroke cycle and converts to pace. For instance, pull a long hard stroke and then a quick arms only stroked and you will see a far faster split for the quick arms only jab. Since there is no way the arms actually input more power, that calculation simply piggybacked on the previous larger energy input. It all balances out in the end, but this is why "Max Pull" that is discussed from time to time is more of a game, than a representation of anything meaningful. Do this months CTC www.c2ctc.com if you want to get an idea of how you stack up for power (There are some monsters in the list).

The DF is calculated during the decelleration, perhaps represented by the slope of the line that might be plotted at a particular segment of the decelleration curve.