We paid for a 'new' Model E rower from Concept 2 - but it arrived in poor condition. Replacements have been sent, but we are now on our 3rd model, and all have arrived in a bad state. Dents, rips, exposed steel, rust, chipped plastic, worn seat, dirty seat rollers - you name it. Photos and details to follow.
Is this the standard we should expect?
Worryingly, they all came professionally packaged and wrapped as they should be, and we were promised that the latest replacement would be handpicked from new stock. This means either:
1. Shoddy product - poor build and quality control. Disappointing.
2. Shoddy company - selling used machines as new. We hope not.
3. Dreadful mixup between used boxes and new boxes. Worth giving Concept2 one last chance to get it right. We hope so.
What do people think?
We just want a brand new model, in the condition and working order expected! Simple - or so we thought!
I should say that everybody has been very quick, polite and helpful in dealing with our problem so far. We just don't know what to do now and thought we'd get some viewpoints and experiences of others before deciding.
Concept2 - have they become shoddy?
Were these problems in your photos from one rower, the last one shipped too you, or were these photos taken from a combination of problems from different rowers.
It is hard to say from the photos if these problems are as serious as you say they are. At the most they look like cosmetic blemishes. It looks like this marks are imperfections in the molds and casting and or not from neglect or poor workmanship. You make these imperfections sound so much more serious than they are.
The cable that isn't tied the way you like,"more professionally", feels to me like you are being to picky, sorry, it no way effects the quality of the rower.
The black marks on the seat rollers, all machines have these. These marks easily come off with a little cleaning and will come back after the first row. The marks are not defects.
The seat not rolling as smooth as the you would like, all it needs is a little wiping off with windex. Something got on the rail from shipping. Rails should be wiped before and after rowing!!
l
I think you have to remember you are buying a exercise machine not some fine piece of china that never gets touched
The more I think about it, without personally seeing the machine and from the pictures you sent out. I think you are being way too critical.
If I were concept2, I would think nothing is going to make this person happy-- '
I would say thank very much, please ship the machine back. And we will be happily to give you your money back.
I honestly don't think you will ever be happy with the machines sent to you and will look their replacement machine over with a magnifying glass till you find something to be unhappy about.
You asked, sorry, but I have a hard time being supportive!
It is hard to say from the photos if these problems are as serious as you say they are. At the most they look like cosmetic blemishes. It looks like this marks are imperfections in the molds and casting and or not from neglect or poor workmanship. You make these imperfections sound so much more serious than they are.
The wear you claim was on the seat is difficult for me to see. I would hope concept2 would test every machine and row some meters on it before they send it out, which may account for the seat looking like someone sat on it.1. Shoddy product - poor build and quality control. Disappointing.
2. Shoddy company - selling used machines as new. We hope not.
3. Dreadful mixup between used boxes and new boxes. Worth giving Concept2 one last chance to get it right. We hope so.
The cable that isn't tied the way you like,"more professionally", feels to me like you are being to picky, sorry, it no way effects the quality of the rower.
The black marks on the seat rollers, all machines have these. These marks easily come off with a little cleaning and will come back after the first row. The marks are not defects.
The seat not rolling as smooth as the you would like, all it needs is a little wiping off with windex. Something got on the rail from shipping. Rails should be wiped before and after rowing!!
l
I think you have to remember you are buying a exercise machine not some fine piece of china that never gets touched
The more I think about it, without personally seeing the machine and from the pictures you sent out. I think you are being way too critical.
Worth giving Concept2 one last chance to get it right. We hope so.
If I were concept2, I would think nothing is going to make this person happy-- '
I would say thank very much, please ship the machine back. And we will be happily to give you your money back.
I honestly don't think you will ever be happy with the machines sent to you and will look their replacement machine over with a magnifying glass till you find something to be unhappy about.
You asked, sorry, but I have a hard time being supportive!
Oh my god! I've just bought a Model E, and it looks NOTHING like that !!
That is clearly not right to anybody. No idea what rowland is looking at. Rust and chippings? No WAY! That rubber cage part looks worse than anything I've seen even with bozos slapping the chain all over it - mine is perfectly clear and unmarked.
It's gotta be a mix up - I use Concepts all the time and have never seen defects like that in my life, even with "commercial abuse". Let them sort it out for you, you'll be glad once you use it!
That is clearly not right to anybody. No idea what rowland is looking at. Rust and chippings? No WAY! That rubber cage part looks worse than anything I've seen even with bozos slapping the chain all over it - mine is perfectly clear and unmarked.
It's gotta be a mix up - I use Concepts all the time and have never seen defects like that in my life, even with "commercial abuse". Let them sort it out for you, you'll be glad once you use it!
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Yankeerunner
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It's hard to say for sure, going by words and some photos posted on a forum, but I'm somewhere between Rowland and Kate81 in my thinking.
Going by my own experiences with C2 over the past 7+ years which echo's skalpol's "I should say that everybody has been very quick, polite and helpful in dealing with our problem so far. ", I'm inclined to give C2 the benefit of a doubt. Being in the retail business myself for the past 28 years I can also understand Rowland's comment "I honestly don't think you will ever be happy with the machines sent to you and will look their replacement machine over with a magnifying glass till you find something to be unhappy about." I've had more than enough of that in my own business.
Kate 81's comment "It's gotta be a mix up - I use Concepts all the time and have never seen defects like that in my life, even with "commercial abuse"." can't be ignored though. If that is indeed a fair representation of all three machines, then something is wrong.
Whether it is C2 just picking on skalpol or skalpol nitpicking, I'd say that after three tries the two parties should just part company, hopefully on good terms. If skalpol still wants a machine then perhaps buying it in the aftermarket, say eBay or Craigslist, is the way to go, and accept the the potentially lower price of a used machine to be the tradeoff for 'chips & rips.'
Going by my own experiences with C2 over the past 7+ years which echo's skalpol's "I should say that everybody has been very quick, polite and helpful in dealing with our problem so far. ", I'm inclined to give C2 the benefit of a doubt. Being in the retail business myself for the past 28 years I can also understand Rowland's comment "I honestly don't think you will ever be happy with the machines sent to you and will look their replacement machine over with a magnifying glass till you find something to be unhappy about." I've had more than enough of that in my own business.
Kate 81's comment "It's gotta be a mix up - I use Concepts all the time and have never seen defects like that in my life, even with "commercial abuse"." can't be ignored though. If that is indeed a fair representation of all three machines, then something is wrong.
Whether it is C2 just picking on skalpol or skalpol nitpicking, I'd say that after three tries the two parties should just part company, hopefully on good terms. If skalpol still wants a machine then perhaps buying it in the aftermarket, say eBay or Craigslist, is the way to go, and accept the the potentially lower price of a used machine to be the tradeoff for 'chips & rips.'
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Snail Space
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I'd say that Rick's advice is right on the money.Yankeerunner wrote:Whether it is C2 just picking on skalpol or skalpol nitpicking, I'd say that after three tries the two parties should just part company, hopefully on good terms. If skalpol still wants a machine then perhaps buying it in the aftermarket, say eBay or Craigslist, is the way to go, and accept the the potentially lower price of a used machine to be the tradeoff for 'chips & rips.'
After a million metres the blemishes will be there anyway, and the ergo will still be going strong after 100 million metres. It will still be functioning perfectly when you are slowed down by your own 'chips & rips'!
Cheers
Dave
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johnlvs2run
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I agree with Kate.
Some of the things might get by, but not all of them.
There is no excuse for the rust, especially on a machine that is new and it's a bad sign for the rest of the inventory.
Some of the things might get by, but not all of them.
There is no excuse for the rust, especially on a machine that is new and it's a bad sign for the rest of the inventory.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
I can only say again that these are not cosmetic blemishes - and that it is damage, however it arose. I do not expect fine china, or Rolex craftsmanship. The photos are just examples of the type of damage. They are not all or show the number of defects - there would be over 40 photos that way. Dirt or a bit of accidental and replacable damage is fine - several defects among a lot of different parts is a different matter and indicates something more serious. To give an idea of size, the chips in the plastic are the size of the screws on the footboard.
It is unbelievable to claim that imperfect mouldings cause dents, chips, surface rips, scratches or rust. Forgive me if I don't take that viewpoint seriously.
When I use a rower, I row, I do not throw it out of the window every week! This kind of damage does not come with use when the machine is in a fixed place. It comes with abuse and being knocked around. The way the rowers are packed, this damage can not happen in transit either.
I know very well what the new parts should look like, because of the parts of the machines which came undamaged. C2 have stated themselves that these defects should NOT be present.
The seat picture hasn't come out well at all - one of the three seats was not in new condition however. The cable not being tied as it would be by Concept 2 is relevant only because it indicates being last packed by a customer, and therefore a stock mixup. The ripped metal was sharp and dangerous. The rust obviously came because the steel was exposed.
I don't have any problem dealing with C2. As far as I know, they don't have any problem with me and we are both in agreement that this is unacceptable.
It doesn't bode well that even some people say that a C2 should be expected to come in this kind of condition!
It is unbelievable to claim that imperfect mouldings cause dents, chips, surface rips, scratches or rust. Forgive me if I don't take that viewpoint seriously.
When I use a rower, I row, I do not throw it out of the window every week! This kind of damage does not come with use when the machine is in a fixed place. It comes with abuse and being knocked around. The way the rowers are packed, this damage can not happen in transit either.
I know very well what the new parts should look like, because of the parts of the machines which came undamaged. C2 have stated themselves that these defects should NOT be present.
The seat picture hasn't come out well at all - one of the three seats was not in new condition however. The cable not being tied as it would be by Concept 2 is relevant only because it indicates being last packed by a customer, and therefore a stock mixup. The ripped metal was sharp and dangerous. The rust obviously came because the steel was exposed.
I don't have any problem dealing with C2. As far as I know, they don't have any problem with me and we are both in agreement that this is unacceptable.
It doesn't bode well that even some people say that a C2 should be expected to come in this kind of condition!
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Snail Space
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I don't think that anyone has said that. If I pay a grand for a C2 I expect it to be near perfect, and so would anybody. What YankeeRunner and I are saying is that there comes a point when the confidence and rapport between customer and vendor becomes irrevocably broken (and three attempts without satisfaction is a fair marker that the point has been reached).skalpol wrote:It doesn't bode well that even some people say that a C2 should be expected to come in this kind of condition!
I would hope that if you were to be offered, and accept, a full refund you would not have suffered any loss other that that caused by the inconvenience of your pursuit of satisfaction. If you were then to seek a "nearly new" you would have a machine that was just as good as a new one, but with a few hundred $$$ knocked off the price.
I think that you have been extremely unlucky; I have heard nothing but plaudits for the quality of C2 machines otherwise. Nothing in this world is 100% guaranteed - I'm told that even Rolls-Royces break down occasionally.
Good luck
Dave
I need to make it clear that the relationship is nothing like you describe.
Nobody at C2 has personally inspected a machine before sending them out (because they thought the damage unbelievable and very unlucky, and were confident it would not be repeated). The replacements were already boxed, and just shipped from stock. Nobody at C2 has disputed that the returned machines were in unacceptable condition.
When and if C2 and I disagree on what is acceptable, then you are right. However this hasn't happened once, let alone 3 times.
What is calling me fussy and saying that I will never be satisfied, other than to imply that this damage should be expected and accepted?
Nobody at C2 has personally inspected a machine before sending them out (because they thought the damage unbelievable and very unlucky, and were confident it would not be repeated). The replacements were already boxed, and just shipped from stock. Nobody at C2 has disputed that the returned machines were in unacceptable condition.
When and if C2 and I disagree on what is acceptable, then you are right. However this hasn't happened once, let alone 3 times.
What is calling me fussy and saying that I will never be satisfied, other than to imply that this damage should be expected and accepted?
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johnlvs2run
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Honestly, things happen.
I got a new model D/pm3 that had a terrible vibration. C2 offered to replace the front when I called, but I tried it for a couple of months (to see if it was me or something else), then went ahead with the exchange. The new part still had some vibration - perhaps all the newer models do - but not as bad.
A few weeks later, C2 posted there was a defect in the housing and sent a retro kit to anyone who requested one. This consisted of a couple of thin metal places to put on either side of the housing by the foot rests. Then they corrected the newer housings from them on.
I would have liked to have a newer housing without the defect, but figured C2 had quite a task with the defect, and the machine was okay as long as it kept working and the housing didn't rip.
There are things that happen with C2 machines from time to time, just like anything. They are generally great about replacing things.
Although I'm a long time runner, the last time I was in a running store was 15 years ago, when I got 2 pair of Adidas running shoes for $95 each. That was by far the most I'd paid for running shoes. Prior to that I'd usually gotten them for $20 or less and certainly less than $40. But I figured if these were REALLY good shoes they'd be worth it. Alas, the d*mned things curled up in 3 weeks and were worthless. At that point I had run in them and, being the typical running shoestore salespeople they'd probably have hassled me for trying to return them. In any case I was ticked off they had sold me such shoddy shoes at such a high rip off price and vowed to never go there again.
I went to Walmart the next day and got a pair of shoes quite suitable for running for $8.95. They felt great when I ran so I went back the next day and got 7 more pair of them, all for less than I'd paid for 1 pair of the worthless shoes from the running store.
The Walmart shoes have turned out to be some of the best running shoes that I've had. They last and last, keep their shape, and when the outer rubber wears out I just get another pair of them and use those. Plus it is easy to rotate them, a pair for each day of the week. Alas, now they've gone up to $9.95.
I got a new model D/pm3 that had a terrible vibration. C2 offered to replace the front when I called, but I tried it for a couple of months (to see if it was me or something else), then went ahead with the exchange. The new part still had some vibration - perhaps all the newer models do - but not as bad.
A few weeks later, C2 posted there was a defect in the housing and sent a retro kit to anyone who requested one. This consisted of a couple of thin metal places to put on either side of the housing by the foot rests. Then they corrected the newer housings from them on.
I would have liked to have a newer housing without the defect, but figured C2 had quite a task with the defect, and the machine was okay as long as it kept working and the housing didn't rip.
There are things that happen with C2 machines from time to time, just like anything. They are generally great about replacing things.
Although I'm a long time runner, the last time I was in a running store was 15 years ago, when I got 2 pair of Adidas running shoes for $95 each. That was by far the most I'd paid for running shoes. Prior to that I'd usually gotten them for $20 or less and certainly less than $40. But I figured if these were REALLY good shoes they'd be worth it. Alas, the d*mned things curled up in 3 weeks and were worthless. At that point I had run in them and, being the typical running shoestore salespeople they'd probably have hassled me for trying to return them. In any case I was ticked off they had sold me such shoddy shoes at such a high rip off price and vowed to never go there again.
I went to Walmart the next day and got a pair of shoes quite suitable for running for $8.95. They felt great when I ran so I went back the next day and got 7 more pair of them, all for less than I'd paid for 1 pair of the worthless shoes from the running store.
The Walmart shoes have turned out to be some of the best running shoes that I've had. They last and last, keep their shape, and when the outer rubber wears out I just get another pair of them and use those. Plus it is easy to rotate them, a pair for each day of the week. Alas, now they've gone up to $9.95.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
I respect your opinion and I also choose to disagreeIt is unbelievable to claim that imperfect mouldings cause dents, chips, surface rips, scratches or rust. Forgive me if I don't take that viewpoint seriously.
I absolutely stand by my first post on this matter.
Concept2 is a very fair company and I am sure they will do everything to try and please you. I think they already have, shipping you three machines, That would come to $300.00 in shipping. $50.00 each way, and "you want to give them one more try to see if they can get it right!" please!!
A good friend of mine owns a manufacturing company. He also has a model D machine and loves it. I have been a consultant on many of his projects. I have worked with casting and molded plastics that a third party made for the products he sells. In the plastic parts that concept 2 has made for them you would like to have every plastic part come out perfect, In the real world this doesn't happen, some batches of molds have slight imperfections, if there are relatively minor, like yours are, you use them. It;s a cost factor.
kate said
Oh my god! I've just bought a Model E, and it looks NOTHING like that !!
Your blown up camera pictures exaggerate the the problem.
This morning I took a very close look at a 2006 model D under a good light. I found some of the imperfections in the plastic molded parts that you found, I did find a raised spot just like you posted in one of your pictures on the end of the rail. What do you think I should do about it. ask for my money back. [Sorry, I am being a wise guy] The imperfection was there and always will be there. It hasn't effected the rowing in any way and I only noticed it after you brought it up.
I haven't seen a new E model yet in person, but from your picture it looks like concept2 have gone to cast leg braces to provide more strengh for the higher height legs. The dents you are looking at were in the castings before they powder coated them. they didn't come from neglect. The slight surface rust inside one of the holes is a very minor issue. It should easily wipe off with a little wd40.
You will not see these problems on a model D, the legs are made steel, they are not cast and are not as strong.
Yes the seat picture didn't come out well, what should we be looking for in the bad picture you posted. You are claiming the seat was worn,a used seat, how much wear should we be looking for. I don't see any!
Do you concide on the seat roller problem, that maybe I was right on this point.
We will never really know but after them sending you 3 machines and your post acussing them of-------I don't have any problem dealing with C2. As far as I know, they don't have any problem with me and we are both in agreement that this is unacceptable.
I can only imagine how they feel1. Shoddy product - poor build and quality control. Disappointing.
2. Shoddy company - selling used machines as new. We hope not.
3. Dreadful mixup between used boxes and new boxes. Worth giving Concept2 one last chance to get it right. We hope so.
In my opinion concept2 customer service is outstanding, The same outstanding quality goes into there rowing rowing machines There pricing on spare parts is the best I have ever seen from any company. If I was ever to wear out my rower, for around 50 bucks and a few hours of time it would be like new.
If you ever have tryed to buy spare parts from a new auto dealer you know what I am talking.
I wish you well, peace
rowland
Last edited by rowland on January 14th, 2008, 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rowland doesn't speak for me. Unlike him, I have actually seen this product and own one. I have looked closely all over, closer than those photos (which don't look blown up to me - I know the bits being shown, and these are pretty big - that metal rip thing about an inch, and the chips on the footrests about half an inch), and there is not a single mark on it. I assure you. Please don't give up on the product.
Rowland doesn't speak for Concept 2 either. He is doing them a great disservice by suggesting this is how a new/normal product should be.
As for the mouldings, I'm with the orginal poster - what are you on about rowland? - only that rear bumper could even possibly be caused by that. And that is obviously not the problem, cos that's like 2 dollars and five seconds work to replace.
Rowland doesn't speak for Concept 2 either. He is doing them a great disservice by suggesting this is how a new/normal product should be.
As for the mouldings, I'm with the orginal poster - what are you on about rowland? - only that rear bumper could even possibly be caused by that. And that is obviously not the problem, cos that's like 2 dollars and five seconds work to replace.
