Why does the track slope? OTW vs. erg question.
-
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 249
- Joined: July 13th, 2007, 2:48 pm
- Location: Niagara Falls, Ontario
Why does the track slope? OTW vs. erg question.
On both the C2 Model C and D there is a slight incline to the slide. I read here recently that it is 1" in 4'.
Why?
Or alternatively, why are the slides in a boat not slightly sloping toward the stern?
On the erg the slope helps in the recovery and is small enough not to hinder the drive.
However, OTW I am noticing, on occassion that it is difficult to get back to a shins vertical position at the catch. It could be something to do with the rigging as the boats in our league (all 8+) are set up for one size fits all...and there are a LOT of shapes and sizes! Or it could be the movement of the boat. Or, much more likely it could be poor strength and/or endurance in whichever of my leg muscles are used in the recovery.
Any ideas?
Brent
Why?
Or alternatively, why are the slides in a boat not slightly sloping toward the stern?
On the erg the slope helps in the recovery and is small enough not to hinder the drive.
However, OTW I am noticing, on occassion that it is difficult to get back to a shins vertical position at the catch. It could be something to do with the rigging as the boats in our league (all 8+) are set up for one size fits all...and there are a LOT of shapes and sizes! Or it could be the movement of the boat. Or, much more likely it could be poor strength and/or endurance in whichever of my leg muscles are used in the recovery.
Any ideas?
Brent
6'2.5", 228lbs[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1247165781.png[/img]
Re: Why does the track slope? OTW vs. erg question.
It was always my impression that they do slope that way and that the erg was designed to match that slope. In my old single, as well as the club boats that I used, it was always nice to know that the seat would be under me when I got in and not way up towards the bow. There were a few times when this was not true and it was not pleasant to find myself sitting on the bare tracks.icomefrombirmingham wrote:Or alternatively, why are the slides in a boat not slightly sloping toward the stern?
Brent
Bob S.
P.S. How did this thread end up under product? It belongs in the OTW category.
-
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 249
- Joined: July 13th, 2007, 2:48 pm
- Location: Niagara Falls, Ontario
Re: Why does the track slope? OTW vs. erg question.
Bob S. wrote:It was always my impression that they do slope that way and that the erg was designed to match that slope. In my old single, as well as the club boats that I used, it was always nice to know that the seat would be under me when I got in and not way up towards the bow. There were a few times when this was not true and it was not pleasant to find myself sitting on the bare tracks.icomefrombirmingham wrote:Or alternatively, why are the slides in a boat not slightly sloping toward the stern?
Brent
Bob S.
P.S. How did this thread end up under product? It belongs in the OTW category.
6'2.5", 228lbs[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1247165781.png[/img]
It's also my experience that the slides slope to the stern in most sculling boats (not so sure about sweeps). It's quite pronounced in my Kaschper. Not so much in my Dirigo or the club Hudson 2X I row.
If you don't try, you will never know how bad you suck.
Master D (54) / 208#
500M/1:38, 2K/7:02.3, 6K/22:17, 10K/38:31, 30'/7,700M, 60'/15,331M, HM /1hr 23:03 (all done back in 2007)
Master D (54) / 208#
500M/1:38, 2K/7:02.3, 6K/22:17, 10K/38:31, 30'/7,700M, 60'/15,331M, HM /1hr 23:03 (all done back in 2007)
-
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 249
- Joined: July 13th, 2007, 2:48 pm
- Location: Niagara Falls, Ontario
Re: Why does the track slope? OTW vs. erg question.
Hi Bob,Bob S. wrote:It was always my impression that they do slope that way and that the erg was designed to match that slope. In my old single, as well as the club boats that I used, it was always nice to know that the seat would be under me when I got in and not way up towards the bow. There were a few times when this was not true and it was not pleasant to find myself sitting on the bare tracks.icomefrombirmingham wrote:Or alternatively, why are the slides in a boat not slightly sloping toward the stern?
Brent
Bob S.
P.S. How did this thread end up under product? It belongs in the OTW category.
The slides on our boats definitely don't slope towards the foot stretchers.
I haven't taken a spirit level to them, but you can slide the seat to anywhere on the track and it will stay there.
I put this in the product section because my original question was why the slope on the erg. Perhaps I should have put the rest in "OTW".
6'2.5", 228lbs[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1247165781.png[/img]
-
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 249
- Joined: July 13th, 2007, 2:48 pm
- Location: Niagara Falls, Ontario
Several of the 8+s we use are Kaschpers. Perhaps it is a sweep thing?coggs wrote:It's also my experience that the slides slope to the stern in most sculling boats (not so sure about sweeps). It's quite pronounced in my Kaschper. Not so much in my Dirigo or the club Hudson 2X I row.
Brent
6'2.5", 228lbs[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1247165781.png[/img]
- PaulS
- 10k Poster
- Posts: 1212
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:07 pm
- Location: Washington State, USA
- Contact:
From a nice assembly of knowlege called "Ask Frank" (Frank Cunningham, 2006, p 76.)
Question: I have noticed that the tracks in the boats are set at a slight angle to the horizontal. Can you tell me why?
Answer: "Like a good many things about the arrangements in a racing shell, the slight angle you speak of was arrived at empirically; that is, by trial and error.
...
So it would seem that, if it is helpful to get a downward slide on the return to the catch, a little is better than a lot, and better than none."
My own take on the matter is that while there does need to be some muscular effort to initiate the recovery, the slope of the slide has settled into a spot that will allow virtually effortless continuation of the recovery after the initial move of the athlete that sets their center of mass in motion toward the stern, which takes place prior to the wheels beginning to turn.
Question: I have noticed that the tracks in the boats are set at a slight angle to the horizontal. Can you tell me why?
Answer: "Like a good many things about the arrangements in a racing shell, the slight angle you speak of was arrived at empirically; that is, by trial and error.
...
So it would seem that, if it is helpful to get a downward slide on the return to the catch, a little is better than a lot, and better than none."
My own take on the matter is that while there does need to be some muscular effort to initiate the recovery, the slope of the slide has settled into a spot that will allow virtually effortless continuation of the recovery after the initial move of the athlete that sets their center of mass in motion toward the stern, which takes place prior to the wheels beginning to turn.
Erg on,
Paul Smith
www.ps-sport.net Your source for Useful Rowing Accessories and Training Assistance.
"If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask me the question."
Paul Smith
www.ps-sport.net Your source for Useful Rowing Accessories and Training Assistance.
"If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask me the question."
-
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 249
- Joined: July 13th, 2007, 2:48 pm
- Location: Niagara Falls, Ontario
Hmmm,PaulS wrote:From a nice assembly of knowlege called "Ask Frank" (Frank Cunningham, 2006, p 76.)
Question: I have noticed that the tracks in the boats are set at a slight angle to the horizontal. Can you tell me why?
Answer: "Like a good many things about the arrangements in a racing shell, the slight angle you speak of was arrived at empirically; that is, by trial and error.
...
So it would seem that, if it is helpful to get a downward slide on the return to the catch, a little is better than a lot, and better than none."
My own take on the matter is that while there does need to be some muscular effort to initiate the recovery, the slope of the slide has settled into a spot that will allow virtually effortless continuation of the recovery after the initial move of the athlete that sets their center of mass in motion toward the stern, which takes place prior to the wheels beginning to turn.
Very interesting.
Since the concensus is mounting that there should be a slight slope, which would assist in the recovery, I am back to the second part of the question.
Since that is purely an OTW question, I'll post it again there.
(BTW, when I mentioned the slope on the erg to our coach she was convinced that there shouldn't be a slope on the erg and that there definitely wasn't one in the boats!).
Brent
6'2.5", 228lbs[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1247165781.png[/img]
- johnlvs2run
- Half Marathon Poster
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 1:13 pm
- Location: California Central Coast
- Contact:
the out of whack concept2 railing
I personally HATE the @#$#ed sloped railing on the erg.icomefrombirmingham wrote:On both the C2 Model C and D there is a slight incline to the slide. I read here recently that it is 1" in 4'.
Why?
Or alternatively, why are the slides in a boat not slightly sloping toward the stern?
My modelB had an almost level railing. Since then, the C and D have been whacked up out of level.
C2's explanation was they think railings in boats should be sloped.
WHATEVER.
The sloped railing takes away a lot of the enjoyment of rowing. Imagine if the front seat in your car continuously went up and down 2 inches every 2 seconds. The car would still go just as fast but it would drive you insane.
At various times I have raised the front legs, and more recently lowered the back ones, though I've not yet done this with the D. This levels the railing and makes the ride much more pleasant.
However, C2's sloped down railing also messes up the relative height of the cogwheel in relation to the mechanics of the body, i.e. the direction of the slope of the railing. I posted about this a few years ago with a hypothetical photo of a modelJ, where the railing is flat and the fan/cogwheel in better relative position, as pertains to the angle of one's chest and the arms.
Consider if the cogwheel was 12 inches higher for a person who is 6' 8" in height. That is the situation now for most of us. Imagine in a boat if the oarlocks were 12 inches above the side of the boat. That is the situation for most of us on the erg. However C2 likes the idea and is not going to change it.
Possible solutions are to (1) fashion new back legs out of wood as I have done, which lowers the railing in back to level position but doesn't do anything for the out of position height of the cogwheel; or (2) adjust the connection of the erg in the middle. By raising this connection, the railing can be leveled, and the body will be more in line with the position of the cogwheel.
The latter is something I have looked at and experimented with slightly but not yet worked out a solution for and may not. What I see it taking is an intermediate attachment, which would fit in place in the center of the erg and allow the adjustment to take place in a sturdy position. Should someone come up with more ideas for such a solution, let me know.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
-
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 258
- Joined: September 10th, 2006, 12:13 pm
- Location: Durham, UK
In Nolte's book "Rowng Faster" the chapter on rigging shows that the slide should slope on both sculls and sweep boats. He refers to the correct height of the gate relative to the lowest point of the seat.icomefrombirmingham wrote:Several of the 8+s we use are Kaschpers. Perhaps it is a sweep thing?coggs wrote:It's also my experience that the slides slope to the stern in most sculling boats (not so sure about sweeps). It's quite pronounced in my Kaschper. Not so much in my Dirigo or the club Hudson 2X I row.
Brent
If the slide is level in your sweep boat the only alternative for you is to find a sloping lake!

Cheers
Dave
-
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 249
- Joined: July 13th, 2007, 2:48 pm
- Location: Niagara Falls, Ontario
Yes, it does say that in Rowing Faster. I remember reading it and wondering what it meant!Snail Space wrote:In Nolte's book "Rowng Faster" the chapter on rigging shows that the slide should slope on both sculls and sweep boats. He refers to the correct height of the gate relative to the lowest point of the seat.icomefrombirmingham wrote:Several of the 8+s we use are Kaschpers. Perhaps it is a sweep thing?coggs wrote:It's also my experience that the slides slope to the stern in most sculling boats (not so sure about sweeps). It's quite pronounced in my Kaschper. Not so much in my Dirigo or the club Hudson 2X I row.
Brent
If the slide is level in your sweep boat the only alternative for you is to find a sloping lake!![]()
Cheers
Dave
A sloping lake....or an even heavier cox.
Brent
6'2.5", 228lbs[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1247165781.png[/img]
-
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 258
- Joined: September 10th, 2006, 12:13 pm
- Location: Durham, UK
A couple of years ago, when my son was 11, one of his quad crew didn't turn up to a rowing session. In order that the boys could still row the coach asked me if I minded sitting at bow. I was 110kg at that time, so the stern lifted so far that the rudder was clear of the water. The boys still thought that it was better than no rowing, and the cox just enjoyed the ride.icomefrombirmingham wrote:A sloping lake....or an even heavier cox.
Brent
I suppose I must have levelled the slide, or even reversed the slope, for them. Up-hill on the recovery; what a pain!
Nowadays I'm 95kg, and the boys (now age 13) are growing taller and piling on the beef, so I don't think the effect of me sitting at bow would be quite so dramatic.
Cheers
Dave
All of our Indoor Rowers (A-E) have been designed with some slope towards the flywheel. We were not trying to match the slope of the rails in any particular boat at the time (1981), but rather it was a trial and error effort to simulate the feel of the recovery in a boat. When recovering in a boat, much of the relative movement between boat and rower is accomplished by the boat moving to you simply because the boat weighs less. On the erg (off slides), your body does all of the moving, and our goal was to give the oarsman "a little help on the recovery without hindering the drive" ......C2JonW
73 year old grandpa living in Waterbury Center, Vermont, USA
Concept2 employee 1980-2018! and what a long, strange trip it's been......
Concept2 employee 1980-2018! and what a long, strange trip it's been......
Nolte's comment doesn't refer to moving the seat to the lowest point on the tracks. Since the seat is not flat, this comment refers to using the lowest point on the seat when measuring height. The seat should be positioned at the point where the rower will be taking the catch, i.e. at or slightly through the pin, when measuring gate height.Snail Space wrote:In Nolte's book "Rowng Faster" the chapter on rigging shows that the slide should slope on both sculls and sweep boats. He refers to the correct height of the gate relative to the lowest point of the seat.
[url=http://www.homestarrunner.com/fhqwhgads.html]fhqwghads[/url]
-
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 249
- Joined: July 13th, 2007, 2:48 pm
- Location: Niagara Falls, Ontario
Thanks Jon. Makes sense to me and I enjoy (and need!) the help I get from the slope on the erg.
Now we just need to establish whether there is or is not a slope to the tracks in shells. Some who have posted think there is, others do not. I'm pretty sure our Kaschper 8+s do not.
It could be a difference between skulling and sweep shells, or between singles/doubles and bigger boats?
Brent
Now we just need to establish whether there is or is not a slope to the tracks in shells. Some who have posted think there is, others do not. I'm pretty sure our Kaschper 8+s do not.
It could be a difference between skulling and sweep shells, or between singles/doubles and bigger boats?
Brent
6'2.5", 228lbs[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1247165781.png[/img]