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Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 22nd, 2023, 5:40 am
by RaymondB
Hello all,
I've been looking through the forum to see if this question popped up before, but couldn't find it.
At our rowing club, we've got several generations of row ergs. Now I know the ergs with the PM3 screens don't have any wireless options for racing. But we also have a couple of PM4's and PM5's. I know the PM5's will connect for a wireless race, but does anyone know if it would be possible to get the PM4's to join in as well? That would greatly enhance the number of machines we can put in a single race.
As far as I know, no one has ever bothered with firmware upgrades, so if this is something that might be made possible through firmware updates, I'd be more than willing to give that a try
Kind regards,
Raymond
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 22nd, 2023, 8:49 am
by JaapvanE
I know that EXR (a rowing app similar to Zwift) uses Bluetooth for the PM5, but wires for the PM4 and PM3 (see
https://exrgame.com/support/concept-2), suggesting that the PM4 lacks wireless functions.
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 22nd, 2023, 11:31 am
by Citroen
I don't think Concept2 publish the details of how wireless racing works. But, just try it, it doesn't hurt to get one PM4 & one PM5.
You could ask C2 by emailing
rowing@concept2.com
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 22nd, 2023, 11:32 am
by Citroen
JaapvanE wrote: ↑August 22nd, 2023, 8:49 am
suggesting that the PM4 lacks wireless functions.
The PM4s have wireless racing (at least with other PM4s).
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 22nd, 2023, 1:49 pm
by JaapvanE
Citroen wrote: ↑August 22nd, 2023, 11:32 am
JaapvanE wrote: ↑August 22nd, 2023, 8:49 am
suggesting that the PM4 lacks wireless functions.
The PM4s have wireless racing (at least with other PM4s).
Is that different from the normal C2 bluetooth interface?
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 22nd, 2023, 3:22 pm
by Citroen
JaapvanE wrote: ↑August 22nd, 2023, 1:49 pm
Is that different from the normal C2 bluetooth interface?
Yes. I'm not sure what protocol it's running. Might be ANT.
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 22nd, 2023, 3:24 pm
by RaymondB
Citroen wrote: ↑August 22nd, 2023, 3:22 pm
JaapvanE wrote: ↑August 22nd, 2023, 1:49 pm
Is that different from the normal C2 bluetooth interface?
Yes. I'm not sure what protocol it's running. Might be ANT.
From the information I've found, the wireless racing is done over ANT. The PM5 has some kind of special bluetooth+ protocol for accessories and some phone app functions. But from what I've seen, both PM4 and PM5 should be equipped with ANT. I'm going to see if I can get some of them together and linked up.
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 22nd, 2023, 4:44 pm
by JaapvanE
RaymondB wrote: ↑August 22nd, 2023, 3:24 pm
From the information I've found, the wireless racing is done over ANT.
Interesting approach. Never thought that ANT+ could be used in that way. Typically it is designed for (Garmin) smartwatches to record workout data from the rower. It only broadcasts every 400 ms, so it is a bit of an odd choice, but it might work.
But even now, ANT+ recording of that data by a smartwatch isn't commonplace (only specific Garmin watches can connect to a C2 that way).
RaymondB wrote: ↑August 22nd, 2023, 3:24 pm
The PM5 has some kind of special bluetooth+ protocol for accessories and some phone app functions.
The PM5 is equiped with Bluetooth or Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) with its own datagrams (messages containing data). Competing brands use FTMS Rower (a standardised structure for fitness devices with specific messages for rowing machines). However, in terms of data, the C2 data is superior to FTMS, as it contains much more detailed data, opening a lot more use cases.
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 22nd, 2023, 7:31 pm
by Carl Watts
It does not work I just tried it.
I have two PM5's and a PM4 and the PM4 cannot find the race to be able to join it.
Either starting the race with the PM4 or starting the race with the PM5 it doesn't work.
The PM5 finds another PM5 instantly.
The PM4 is a second gen running the latest V332 firmware so unless Concept 2 are able to fix the problem in the firmware alone its never going to work. I suspect there are some possible hardware differences or they would have made it compatible.
The last PM4 V332 firmware update was July 2018, the monitor is now getting pretty old. The 1st Gen PM4 version cannot even connect to the latest Garmin RUN ANT+ heartrate monitor, the last V29 firmware update for that was November 2012.
Protocols change over time, things like Bluetooth are a nightmare.
Modern day electronics, it still "Works" like new, but its obsolete.
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 23rd, 2023, 4:39 am
by RaymondB
Carl Watts wrote: ↑August 22nd, 2023, 7:31 pm
It does not work I just tried it.
I have two PM5's and a PM4 and the PM4 cannot find the race to be able to join it.
Either starting the race with the PM4 or starting the race with the PM5 it doesn't work.
The PM5 finds another PM5 instantly.
The PM4 is a second gen running the latest V332 firmware so unless Concept 2 are able to fix the problem in the firmware alone its never going to work. I suspect there are some possible hardware differences or they would have made it compatible.
The last PM4 V332 firmware update was July 2018, the monitor is now getting pretty old. The 1st Gen PM4 version cannot even connect to the latest Garmin RUN ANT+ heartrate monitor, the last V29 firmware update for that was November 2012.
Protocols change over time, things like Bluetooth are a nightmare.
Modern day electronics, it still "Works" like new, but its obsolete.
Awww, too bad. But thanks for checking and letting me know. Saves me a lot of time dragging ergs through the building.
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 23rd, 2023, 6:19 am
by Carl Watts
You could just take the monitor rather than the whole rower to test, however I'm sure you will find it will not work.
One bolt and the TACH unplugs, takes a few seconds if the bolt has a knurled knob rather than a standard nut.
Re: Wireless race compatibility between PM4 and PM5?
Posted: August 23rd, 2023, 6:25 am
by RaymondB
Carl Watts wrote: ↑August 23rd, 2023, 6:19 am
You could just take the monitor rather than the whole rower to test, however I'm sure you will find it will not work.
One bolt and the TACH unplugs, takes a few seconds if the bolt has a knurled knob rather than a standard nut.
Hahaha, you're absolutely right, never thought of that!