Concept2 Forum

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

I purchased a Model E concept 2 a couple of years ago without any prior rowing experience. I worked with a remote coach intermittently during COVID to assure my form was OK, but always have found the sessions really difficult and struggled to complete 2000 meters irrespective of the damper settings. I’ve considered shelving the rowing workouts.

I never used another machine until last weekend when I visited a hotel that had 3 concept2’s. On all 3 units, rowing was a joy (!) and I completed 2000 meters with relative ease.

I can’t imagine this is just a lubrication issue as it has always existed, but am having the unit oiled and serviced tomorrow. Any thoughts? Are there bad machines?

Was your Model E brand new? I'd have expected the hotel ergs to be far worse as they are very rarely maintained properly. Did you check drag factor on any of the ergs rather than damper setting?

I can't discount the possibility of it being a bad erg, but it is very unlikely, especially if it's brand new. If it was second hand, I suppose there's a remote chance that someone has used a bad replacement part

MHSMD wrote: ↑

February 27th, 2023, 6:41 pm

I can’t imagine this is just a lubrication issue as it has always existed, but am having the unit oiled and serviced tomorrow. Any thoughts? Are there bad machines?

There are badly maintained machines and mechanical issues can be present as well. I sincerely hope that oiling your model E helps here. Otherwise contact Concept 2 support: they are super helpful in resolving issues with their machines.

Your C2 Model E is probably clean and tidy, so the drag factor range will be 90 (damper lever 1) to 210 (lever 10).

The ones in the gym are probably full of dust, cruft and crud. So will be closer to drag factor 90 on lever 10. So drop your lever down to 4 to 5 and see how that feels. Once you find a lever setting that works for you get the PM5 to tell you the drag factor and make a note of it. Next time you row in the gym set the damper lever to that same drag factor (if possible) and it should feel much the same on both ergos.

It won't be the chain oiling as that won't have deteriorated enough if you've only ridden the machine a few times.

Are there bad machines?

No, but that's how it seems if drag is too high. Do you know how to adjust the drag? There is a lever on the cage with some numbers alongside. Start at 1.

I'm interested to hear the maintenance guy's opinion of your erg. Bad machine? Highly unlikely for a C2 but a sliver of a possibility. One of the first things your remote coach should have explained is drag factor. If he/she talked only of damper setting, I would find a new coach.

Hotel ergs, in contrast to gym ergs, are typically used for short exercises only. A hotel gym equipped with 3 C2 ergs is probably a classy place, cleaned meticulously each day, used infrequently. Equipment is chosen and often renewed on its appearance.

Recently, a lot of topics have been raised about C2 ergs feeling different. Usually these topics have been commented in a very superficial way :
- if only set at the same drag factor, they will always behave similar ;
- the chain has probably not been oiled recently ;
- installed PM software not up to date ;
- variability in perceived human effort ;
- the topic poster is wrong.

I believe that there is enough evidence that there are serious concerns about reproducibility. The C2 erg is basically a very simple and predictable machine. It should not be difficult to make a rigorous step-by-step check list that reveals the cause of a perceived 'heavy effort' erg.

Nomath wrote: ↑

February 28th, 2023, 3:01 pm

A hotel gym equipped with 3 C2 ergs is probably a classy place, cleaned meticulously each day, used infrequently.

BS. Every erg I've met in a hotel is never clean.

You probably never stayed in a hotel with 3 C2 ergs.

Nomath wrote: ↑

February 28th, 2023, 4:51 pm

You probably never stayed in a hotel with 3 C2 ergs.

There can't be too many of those around.

I wonder what hoity-toity hotel that must have been...

A more serious reply to the OP:

In general rowing at fast pace (for the general public say, < 2:00 min / 500m ) is difficult no matter the drag factor. That's why in races the participants set the drag factor wherever they like. If there were a huge benefit to a DF of 90, then you can be sure that all racers would do that. And to most folks a stroke at DF = 90 feels easier than a stroke at DF = 200. But you get fewer meters for your effort.

So, unless someone's draped a towel over the inlet, preventing 99% of the air to flow through, any legitimate DF is fine. Choose what you like. Chances are, something around 110-130 will be right for you.

Now at the other end, it is relatively easy to row at, say, a pace of 2:30. And the C2 power calculator (see link below) confirms this. At a pace of 2:00 you need to put out 202.5 watts. At a pace of 2:30 you need 103.7 watts, nearly half as much.

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... calculator

I suggest that you keep at it. First, confirm that you erg is functioning properly. It's super easy to check the DF. Is it a reasonable number? If so, that tells you that the flywheel is probably fine. Your ears and hands should be able to tell you if the chain is OK. If it feels smooth and isn't noisy, then the chain is almost certainly fine.

If you find it hard to complete a 2k, then lower your pace a bit, and if you like, take a break at 1000m. The PM can be programmed to do that sort of workout. (the manual explains all that)

Best of luck, and let us know how it works out.

Ombrax wrote: ↑

February 28th, 2023, 8:19 pm

Nomath wrote: ↑

February 28th, 2023, 4:51 pm

You probably never stayed in a hotel with 3 C2 ergs.

There can't be too many of those around.

I wonder what hoity-toity hotel that must have been...

I've got to admit that I've never seen a hotel with C2 ergs nevermind, three of them. I'm probably not spending enough money on them, but when I'm on holiday I don't want to row so it's never a consideration for me.

I'm not convinced that just because they've got them that they're maintained properly. Every gym I've been to has circa six ergs, and good reason to maintain them, but they don't. I'd imagine that hotel gym managers are going to be completely oblivious to a proper maintenance regime.

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑

March 1st, 2023, 6:47 am

Every gym I've been to has circa six ergs, and good reason to maintain them, but they don't. I'd imagine that hotel gym managers are going to be completely oblivious to a proper maintenance regime.

It has nothing to do with being a gym or not, but it has everything to do with asset management and hospitality.

Most gyms consider their main job as teaching. Equipment management simply isn't on their radar. That is not their thing. So the maintenance procedures are ignored, as they don't understand the need to do maintenance. My local gym, equipment really rusts at structurally critical areas, a big no-no in maintenence.

In a gym nearby, they also have a pool. The owner knows he has to maintain a pool with a specific periodicity: ph-levels every day etc.. So an employee is doing the maintenence based in a checklist. When you are in such a mentality, getting an Erg with a maintenance schedule fits the mental model and it will be executed. Just another thing on the daily/weekly/monthly checklist. As they need to oil it every month, it will be underutilized and extremely well maintained/oiled. With any luck, the machine probably seen more oil than sweat during its life...

My two cents on the topic. I've got a year old RowErg with 20k meter on it, so can be considered brand new. Comparing with 6m meters on late 2018 model D, it has much more drag ressistance then the older one. Old had DF of 115 - 120 at 7.5, new one has the same leve at around 5 - 5.5. Doors are always fully blocking the right side of the ergs so this is something to take into consideration. Both are fully free of dust and with oiled chains, but the later has seen gym usage for about 5mm. From this difference alone you can get the inital feeling that the new erg is more difficult and ultimately it is, you just have to get the DF on the same level
Differences that 95% of people would not notice is that new one feels more balanced, there is no wooble/vibration whatsover on the monitor or from the flywheel and there is a bit less noise from the chain + it's absolutely free of any plasticky sounds. Also Rowerg has white and D model blue shock cord, though I cannot say I've noticed any differences in recovery.

Thanks to all for your helpful insight into my issue. Had my C2 serviced - the tech’s perspective was similar. Mostly, that I’m out of shape and need to build up slowly toward substantial distances.

Regarding which hotel has 3 C2’s - The gym at The Venetian Resort in Las Vegas.