Concept2 Forum

Hi all,

Asking for advice, I own a model C from 1999 with a PM2, in mint condition and low km's. I would like to get more data, connect my phone and watch, automate logging my km's, basically getting to the 20th century. I am thinking off adding a PM5 or replacing it by a model D.

My primary reason for upgrading to a model D is that, or what I understand, is that whilst the PM5 can be set for a model C, there is a difference in how data is picked up from the fly wheel eg. difference in number of magnets. Secondary reasons would be that the model d is quieter and comes with the new handle.

My primary reason for keeping my model c seems more sentimental. I understand there would be difference in terms of investment, however I see model c's sold on the secondhand market at high prices in NL.

Thanks for any advice, it's highly appreciated.

Jurrian

jelekan wrote: ↑

October 31st, 2022, 6:54 am

My primary reason for upgrading to a model D is that, or what I understand, is that whilst the PM5 can be set for a model C, there is a difference in how data is picked up from the fly wheel eg. difference in number of magnets.

There is a difference in magnets, but the metrics and functionality of the PM5 will remain the same. In the gym I use a PM3 on a Model D (three magnets) and at home I use a new RowErg with a PM5. There is no difference in functionality and accuracy as far as I can tell.

jelekan wrote: ↑

October 31st, 2022, 6:54 am

Secondary reasons would be that the model d is quieter and comes with the new handle.

You can also buy the new handle in a retrofit kit. I must say I never noticed the D/RowErg being more quiet than the C, as I never saw them side by side.

I feel like a significant part of the decision depends on your personal finances.

If buying a new machine doesn't sound intimidating to your budget - especially given that you claim the old machine is low kms so maybe not used all that often - then go for it. You can sell the model C to help pay for the upgrade, and put the couple of hundred dollars you would've spent on a PM5 monitor kit towards your brand new machine. The model D will do everything you want, without any question. For some people, "rewarding" yourself with a new piece of hardware can help reinvigorate commitment.

But if it were me (and my budget), I'd be more likely to upgrade the model C. You can replace the handle and monitor of your model C for a couple of hundred dollars and keep on rowing. That's lower effort and investment, but still gets the job done nicely. I do agree that upgrading from PM2 is worthwhile.

Curious to hear what others will say.

FWIW:

We have a mix of model C and Model D ergs in the boathouse. We retrofit with PM5s when the older monitors fail, but still have a mix of PM3s and the PM5s. Think there is a PM2 also.

When people grab ergs they take the PM5 units first, that's the only thing they see. A model C is just as apt to be grabbed as a D as long as it has the PM5. All of our ergs have the new plastic handles, no wood ones left.

If you row your new D side by side with the model C you won't see/hear/feel much difference. The model D is easier to reassemble if you take your erg apart often for storage.

I bought my Model C with PM2 in 1997. It wasn't too long before I upgraded the PM to a 2+ so that I could connect it to my PC and not have to manually write down my log. The PM2+ suffered a battery leak incident so I replaced it with a PM3 and started to use the cards. I also replaced the straight wooden handle forthe D shaped plastic one. Indeed I had three of those as I wore through the rubber grip (used to grip it too hard - fixed that).

I always coveted a Model D after my niece bought one in about 2008 but couldn't see the point of the upgrade as the C worked perfectly. However, there are times when the plateau is a bit demotivating and there's always a chance that throwing money at the problem will result in a change. So at the end of 2018 I finally bought a D and started using it in Jan 19. It had the desired effect. MaxDF was higher on the new D so my ultra sprints were all improved. Otherwise, rowing at my usual DF, it was almost the same as the C. In fact I prefer the footrests on the C. The plastic ones on the D have a raised ribbed section which looks like its where the ball of you foot should go for max thrust. But its sited too high, so if you put the ball of your foot plumb centre of that platform, the strap will be across your arch and prevent any heel lift at all. It took me a while, but I've adapted somehow and don't notice it at all now.

I gave my C to a mate and he upgraded the PM3 to a PM5 and its still going strong....

So my advice:
Definitely get a PM5 and all the modern tech that goes with that - its more involving and therefore more motivating.
I dont think it matters if you put it on your C, or go the whole hog and buy a D as well as the PM. Its only worth doing if it motivates you to use it more. Low km on the C is not something to be proud of - you need to work out what will help get you onto the machine most days, and then do that...

If its in really good shape get a PM5 monitor, the Model D is no more "accurate", its just much harder to fake a result.

You can get a "Quiet Kit" for the Model C and fit a new handle then it essentially will "Feel" identical to a Model D.

New chain, sprocket and shaft and a couple of quieter soft chain rollers. The difference is fairly minor but the Model D is smoother and a bit quieter.

Probably needs a new shock cord by now as well. Cheaper than getting a whole new rower if you can do the work yourself.

For most things, I actually prefer the PM3. But I was forced by modernity to switch to PM5.

PM3 advantages: Logcard that makes multi-user use a breeze. Just punch a button and row. Old-school heart monitor. Just put on the strap and row. Reliable access to the log via printer cable and Concept 2 utility.

PM5 advantages: Bluetooth connection to the latest app, including competition. Ability to do ergathlon with multiple ergs (bike, ski, erg).

PM5 disadvantages: Bluetooth apps often fail to update log properly, requiring use of printer cable anyway. Comingles all users -- no ability to have separate ones. Connection ritual for bluetooth or ANT+ heart monitors cumberson. Bluetooth, ANT+ monitors less reliable.

gvcormac wrote: ↑

October 31st, 2022, 6:32 pm

For most things, I actually prefer the PM3. But I was forced by modernity to switch to PM5.

PM3 advantages: Logcard that makes multi-user use a breeze. Just punch a button and row. Old-school heart monitor. Just put on the strap and row. Reliable access to the log via printer cable and Concept 2 utility.

Wouldn't a USB stick in the back of the PM5 do the same? Or am I missing somthing here?

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

October 31st, 2022, 7:54 pm

gvcormac wrote: ↑

October 31st, 2022, 6:32 pm

For most things, I actually prefer the PM3. But I was forced by modernity to switch to PM5.

PM3 advantages: Logcard that makes multi-user use a breeze. Just punch a button and row. Old-school heart monitor. Just put on the strap and row. Reliable access to the log via printer cable and Concept 2 utility.

Wouldn't a USB stick in the back of the PM5 do the same? Or am I missing somthing here?

USB stick is an extra gizmo I have to store and find and wait for it to connect. And I have to convince my wife to do the same. And then I have to plug it in to the Concept 2 utility to upload. Not an improvement over a quasi-permanent per-user record on the logcard that I can upload when I please.

If you’ve got the cash, and you want one, there’s no downside to getting a new Model D (now just Rowerg). It’s a great machine with proven long term durability. At its reasonable cost, I can’t imagine you not getting more than your money’s worth from it.

Besides, kicking a little support C2’s way keeps a great company solvent. These days that isn’t so easy.

It’s a win-win.

Rick

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

October 31st, 2022, 7:54 pm

gvcormac wrote: ↑

October 31st, 2022, 6:32 pm

For most things, I actually prefer the PM3. But I was forced by modernity to switch to PM5.

PM3 advantages: Logcard that makes multi-user use a breeze. Just punch a button and row. Old-school heart monitor. Just put on the strap and row. Reliable access to the log via printer cable and Concept 2 utility.

Wouldn't a USB stick in the back of the PM5 do the same? Or am I missing somthing here?

C2 should have gone with a SD Card rather than a USB stick, the problem is the current draw of a USB stick is to high due to the USB port spec of being able to supply at least 0.5A so the manufacturers do not attempt to minimize the current like they do for say an SD Card or micro card designed for use in your phone. The USB stick is pretty hard on your battery so unless you monitor is plugged into a 5V cellphone charger via a long USB cable I probably wouldn't use one. Some USB sticks use less power than others, really C2 should have done some testing an recommended certain USB's because some don't even work at all.

Overall the PM5 is a way better monitor than the older stuff, its worth changing just for the ANT+ heartrate, the old Polar system is terrible.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

November 2nd, 2022, 12:55 pm

The USB stick is pretty hard on your battery so unless you monitor is plugged into a 5V cellphone charger via a long USB cable I probably wouldn't use one. Some USB sticks use less power than others, really C2 should have done some testing an recommended certain USB's because some don't even work at all.

Yeah, so true. I bought a bunch of USB V1 sticks as they wouldn't max out the port. Took me some tries to find the right one.

So, I think it is always good to have as much perspective as possible on these sorts of issues.
My Model A with PM-1 is doing just fine for me. The actual rowing experience and workout is same on all models.
I am upgrading to a PM-3 in order to be able to use my logcard; and for the session summary that it provides and the PM-1 does not.
There's some perspective for you.
Now if a new erg will indeed help motivate you to row more then that is a good thing, and maybe reason enough to upgrade to one.
Or if the extra connectivity is super important to you then the PM-5 will do that for you.
To me my Model A is truly a funky machine. I love the wood handle and wood foot supports. The flywheel gets a lot less dusty than the cage models and is easier to wipe clean when it does get dusty. The old style seat suits me just fine.
Then again it is important for me to add that I am 81yrs young so that might enter into the equation - ha, ha.
Rowing approximately four times per week.

One other consideration that hasn't been mentioned- the Model D has a generator that powers the monitor when the flywheel is rotating, thus extending the PM5 battery life a lot. The Model C doesn't have a generator so battery life can be a issue. This can be overcome by keeping the PM5 plugged into a computer.

Related to this is the magnets. Models A, B and C use three tiny rare earth magnets that work well for flywheel rotation detection but don't provide enough power to run a monitor. The solution was a larger, 12-pole ring magnet that functions as both a generator component and flywheel rotation indicator.

walterpump wrote: ↑

November 2nd, 2022, 6:58 pm

So, I think it is always good to have as much perspective as possible on these sorts of issues.
My Model A with PM-1 is doing just fine for me. The actual rowing experience and workout is same on all models.
I am upgrading to a PM-3 in order to be able to use my logcard; and for the session summary that it provides and the PM-1 does not.
There's some perspective for you.
Now if a new erg will indeed help motivate you to row more then that is a good thing, and maybe reason enough to upgrade to one.
Or if the extra connectivity is super important to you then the PM-5 will do that for you.
To me my Model A is truly a funky machine. I love the wood handle and wood foot supports. The flywheel gets a lot less dusty than the cage models and is easier to wipe clean when it does get dusty. The old style seat suits me just fine.
Then again it is important for me to add that I am 81yrs young so that might enter into the equation - ha, ha.
Rowing approximately four times per week.

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