Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Maintenance, accessories, operation. Anything to do with making your erg work.
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johnlvs2run
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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by johnlvs2run » April 21st, 2024, 6:56 pm

SoonerCed wrote:
April 20th, 2024, 1:24 pm
Outstanding! I'm looking to do this as well. Any tips on designing the footplate?
I agree. That is nice.

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bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

JaapvanE
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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by JaapvanE » April 22nd, 2024, 12:02 am

Would this be a better solution: https://www.trakfitnessllc.com/shop/p/sportrower

Slidewinder
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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by Slidewinder » April 22nd, 2024, 7:13 am

JaapvanE wrote:
April 22nd, 2024, 12:02 am
Would this be a better solution: https://www.trakfitnessllc.com/shop/p/sportrower
No. See my last post. The Trak Fitness Sportrower handle enables rotation of the hands, but for users with a long reach at the catch the forward structure of the handle will strike the C2 flywheel housing, ruining the user's form. If the articulated handle were modified to prevent this (C2 knows what needs to be done) then all users could enjoy the benefits of a better handle.

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johnlvs2run
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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by johnlvs2run » April 23rd, 2024, 11:15 pm

Siameez wrote:
April 4th, 2022, 9:53 am
As far as foot spread and angle, I think that (for me), even if I didn't have a big belly, it makes more anatomical/mechanical sense to have the feet more toward shoulder width, or at least pelvis width apart, with a little foot outward splay. (look at the dead-lift lifting form, feet spread to pelvis-shoulder width, feet turned a little outward)
I agree with this, and would like to do the same thing.
Please share the dimensions of the wood, and how you attached it to the rowing machine base.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

Slidewinder
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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by Slidewinder » April 27th, 2024, 10:44 am

Surely everyone here has an interest in the advancement of rowing exercise technology. A way to demonstrate that interest would be to try johnlvs2run's set-up on your own machine. He supplies a photo above (April 21). All you need is a short piece of rope, a couple of short tubes, and a carabiner. There you go. You will wonder how everyone has tolerated the rigid, single-piece, stock handle for all of these decades. John's set-up is nothing to look at. It is as crude as something could be and still be functional. But all of the required geometry is there. It ensures that the user's hands, wrists, and forearms remain in alignment with the direction of applied force throughout the stroke, and it enables rotation of the hands anywhere from horizontal to vertical.

On a rowing ergometer, as the user's stroke progresses from catch to finish, the user's arms move from an outstretched position to a position closer to the body, and this results in a natural angular progression of the user's grip. The handgrips of johnlvs2run's set-up follow that angular progression. The handgrips of the stock handle do not.

The problem with johnlvs2run's set-up is the same problem as with the 'SportRower' handle (which C2 recommends on its website as suitable for adaptive rowers). The forward structure of both limits one's forward reach at the catch. But this is a solvable problem. If anyone is interested I would be happy to explain how it is solvable. So even if you have a long reach at the catch and know that this will cause a problem, I urge you to try John's set-up anyway. It is so simple that you can easily go back to the stock handle (years ago when I tried John's set-up I preferred about 11" distance from the front V of the rope to the centre of the handgrips). Even if you quickly abandon it because of the forward reach issue, you will get a sense of what the RowErg could truly be if it were equipped with a properly designed handle.

tadpole
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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by tadpole » April 28th, 2024, 9:26 am

Hi Slidewinder,
I'd love to hear your ideas and how to solve the forward reach problem. I'm currently thinking about building something based on a strip of wood, some eye plates, and some exercise handles.

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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by jamesg » April 30th, 2024, 1:37 am

how everyone has tolerated the rigid, single-piece, stock handle for all of these decades.
I've rowed with prehistoric sculls in a dinghy, 1950s style blades (all wood) in 1x, 2-, 4- and 8+, both old plastic and also C2 hydrodynamic in a single and two types of C2 handles.

Apart from blisters, I've never had any problems. I notice that seats are always hard, but we get used to it. As also rowing in hot sun, fog, rain, ice and snow. I hate to think how coach felt on his bike along the towpath.
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg. Last seen MHR 140.
2024: stroke 6 W-min @ 20-21. No times yet, now using WODs.

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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by JaapvanE » April 30th, 2024, 2:11 am

jamesg wrote:
April 30th, 2024, 1:37 am
how everyone has tolerated the rigid, single-piece, stock handle for all of these decades.
I've rowed with prehistoric sculls in a dinghy, 1950s style blades (all wood) in 1x, 2-, 4- and 8+, both old plastic and also C2 hydrodynamic in a single and two types of C2 handles.
I have to agree with you. I've rowed on many brands of machines over the past decades and I must say the C2 handle is by far the most ergonomic. It won't emulate sweeping nor sculling perfectly, but it allows training of the movement and the muscles involved. More moving elements tend to create/stimulate weird muscle tensions (for example forcing elbow movements). Only practical improvement would be a slightly wider bar, but that isn't a big one.

Looking at weighted gym equipment that emulates rowing, you also see the same type of bars: straight or slightly bend. The vertical (narrow grip) handles are also found there, but that's it. No weird dynamic stuff, all is static. Just a handle to transfer force as efficient as possible. If it was a big issue, you'd see more commercial products being sold.

Slidewinder
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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by Slidewinder » April 30th, 2024, 6:56 am

jamesg wrote:
April 30th, 2024, 1:37 am
how everyone has tolerated the rigid, single-piece, stock handle for all of these decades.
I've rowed with prehistoric sculls in a dinghy, 1950s style blades (all wood) in 1x, 2-, 4- and 8+, both old plastic and also C2 hydrodynamic in a single and two types of C2 handles.
You have tried all those different types of oars and handles. It is therefore a reasonable request that you actually try johnlvs2run's set-up before you dismiss it.

Slidewinder
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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by Slidewinder » April 30th, 2024, 7:11 am

JaapvanE wrote:
April 30th, 2024, 2:11 am
jamesg wrote:
April 30th, 2024, 1:37 am
how everyone has tolerated the rigid, single-piece, stock handle for all of these decades.
I've rowed with prehistoric sculls in a dinghy, 1950s style blades (all wood) in 1x, 2-, 4- and 8+, both old plastic and also C2 hydrodynamic in a single and two types of C2 handles.
I have to agree with you. More moving elements tend to create/stimulate weird muscle tensions (for example forcing elbow movements).
Oh? Have you tried johnlvs2run's set-up to confirm "weird muscle tensions" and "forcing elbow movements"? My experience is that his handle set-up maintains alignment of the hands, wrists, and forearms with the direction of applied force throughout the stroke. My experience is that the handgrips on his set-up follow the natural angular progression of the user's grip as the stroke progresses. It is obvious that the stock handle doesn't do that. It is obvious that the stock handle does not adapt to user's natural movement but instead forces the user to adapt to it, so therefore it is the stock handle that forces elbow movements and weird muscle tensions, not johnlvs2run's set-up. Please report back after you have tried John's innovation.

JaapvanE
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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by JaapvanE » April 30th, 2024, 7:50 am

Slidewinder wrote:
April 30th, 2024, 7:11 am
Please report back after you have tried John's innovation.
I don't have to,just to find out it is a bad idea: on weighted equipment I've seen the effects first hand when people trained with rope.

Slidewinder
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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by Slidewinder » April 30th, 2024, 8:03 am

tadpole wrote:
April 28th, 2024, 9:26 am
Hi Slidewinder,
I'd love to hear your ideas and how to solve the forward reach problem. I'm currently thinking about building something based on a strip of wood, some eye plates, and some exercise handles.
The only thing you are going to get out of a stick of wood and two exercise handles is something that looks like the SportRower handle - and your forward reach problem will not be solved. Many do-it-yourselfers will find my instructions challenging. A basic understanding of geometry and mechanics is required. But you asked for instructions, and I wrote that I would provide them.

johnlvs2run's innovative handle set-up is the candidate for this work. As you can see from his posted photos it is a 'V' shape, with the point of the V to the front. But it doesn't need to be that shape. All of the geometry and functionality of his set-up can be retained within a different physical embodiment. As follows: Replace all of the rope he uses with rigid linkages. Replace the right hand rope linkage with a rigid linkage shaped like an 'L'. Replace the left hand rope linkage with a rigid linkage shaped like a backwards 'L'. Pivotably connect these two linkages at the top of each 'L' such that they are rotatable in the horizontal plane. Pivotably connect the left and right handgrips to the outward pointing leg of each 'L' such that they are rotatable in separate planes perpendicular to the plane of rotation at the front pivot. The assembly will now look like an upside-down 'T' instead of an upside-down 'V', but all of the geometry and functionality will be the same.

With this new embodiment of John's idea, the needed forward clearance can now be obtained on the C2 RowErg by opening up a corridor down the left side of the flywheel housing. This will provide clearance for the nose section of the upside-down 'T' shaped handle. With that goal, remove the two vertical struts and all of the associated hardware holding the PM. The PM is then re-located to the C2 handle clip location in front of the footrests. The existing cable is long enough to reach. Replace the handle clip with a simple fabricated bracket to hold the PM.

That is how the physical embodiment of johnlvs2run's set-up can be modified and still retain all of its geometry and functionality, and how the C2 RowErg can be modified to ensure a happy marriage between them. It solves the forward clearance problem and enables all users, short and tall, rowers and non-rowers, to enjoy the benefits of John's great innovation.

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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by Slidewinder » April 30th, 2024, 8:17 am

JaapvanE wrote:
April 30th, 2024, 7:50 am
Slidewinder wrote:
April 30th, 2024, 7:11 am
Please report back after you have tried John's innovation.
I don't have to,just to find out it is a bad idea: on weighted equipment I've seen the effects first hand when people trained with rope.
Rather than a facile statement that johnlvs2run's set up is "a bad idea", please explain in detail the reasons for your conclusion. Is the ability to rotate one's hands a bad idea? Is alignment of the hands, wrists, and forearms with the direction of applied force throughout the stroke, a bad idea? Is a handle that adapts to the user's natural movements rather than force the user to adapt to it, a bad idea? Please educate me.

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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by Tsnor » April 30th, 2024, 8:23 am

jamesg wrote:
April 30th, 2024, 1:37 am
I notice that seats are always hard, but we get used to it. As also rowing in hot sun, fog, rain, ice and snow. I hate to think how coach felt on his bike along the towpath.
Worst for coach is ALUMINUM launch in spring with water temps in the 30s F (0-5C). The launch bottom reaches the colder water that's a few inches below the surface and the aluminum heat sink pulls all the heat out of the boat.

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Re: Vertical Hands Rowing Bar

Post by Slidewinder » April 30th, 2024, 8:32 am

Tsnor wrote:
April 30th, 2024, 8:23 am
jamesg wrote:
April 30th, 2024, 1:37 am
I notice that seats are always hard, but we get used to it. As also rowing in hot sun, fog, rain, ice and snow. I hate to think how coach felt on his bike along the towpath.
Worst for coach is ALUMINUM launch in spring with water temps in the 30s F (0-5C). The launch bottom reaches the colder water that's a few inches below the surface and the aluminum heat sink pulls all the heat out of the boat.
Off topic diversion, Tsnor.

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