Concept2 Forum

I've just entered the world of rowing, so I'm pretty sure this is a dumb question, but should I be working toward hitting a race distance at a higher damper? I thought I read it's similar to bike gears, and if that's the case the fastest you can go is at the top gears.

No, the damper setting adjusts how much air is let into the machine and that affects how quickly the flywheel slows down due to the air resistance. Speed is measured through a combination of how fast you speed up the flywheel and how quickly it slows down......it's far more scientific than that and I'm sure someone else will reference the exact details.

Basically it's a personal thing but when you find the perfect spot for you you can get some good progress.

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... etting-101

10 will not always equal fast
10 may lead to injuries unless you're very strong
10 on one machine may not be the same as 10 on another

Lot's of info online too.

...and if that sounds in some ways counter intuitive then maybe worth adding the evidence that the very best rowers in the world - over 190 tall, hugely strong, and regularly completing 2k in under 6 mins will have the drag factor set at about 130 (or whatever their favorite number is close to that) which on a new clean erg is somewhere around number 5 on the lever. If they could go faster with a higher drag factor then they would...but they don't. The exceptions to that will be for short sprints (up to 500m) where the strongest men in the world will pull faster times on the highest drag factor that they can get - but nobody can keep that going for 2k or more.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...
I've always thought that the rower's applied power - rather than the damper setting - is what results in greater distance per time unit on the monitor. On the other hand, I'm also under the impression that a higher damper setting allows the rower to continue to apply more power once they've passed a point at which a lower damper setting causes you to spin too freely, requiring too high of a stroke rate.
Right or wrong?

Zuman wrote: ↑

February 11th, 2020, 9:25 pm

I've always thought that the rower's applied power - rather than the damper setting - is what results in greater distance per time unit on the monitor.

Yes, however, for your particular physical capabilities (strength being #1 in this case, if we're talking about high damping levels, and ability to exert that force a number of times in a row - aka aerobic capability at a given load being #2) a given damping level may be better suited for what you can do.

To repeat the bicycle gearing analogy (which isn't perfect, but sort of works) - some guys can pedal at a very slow cadence and apply much larger forces at the pedal, while others pedal at a much higher RPM and apply a lower force. Total power output is similar, but they have different pedaling styles due to what works for their body and ability.

the fastest you can go is at the top gears.

So you've never been on a bike... where speed depends on wind and slope, not gearing.

Don't think of drag as a primary condition. The only real condition in rowing is the quality of the stroke itself, since we do nothing else but pull long hard strokes, whether training or racing, and more or less the same stroke always. So drag has to enable this and this only, via the technique we develop when beginners.

Any drag lower than 130 can fit this need, but with age you can reduce it. I use 85 and it sets me no limits I don't have already.

soggycow wrote: ↑

February 11th, 2020, 3:14 pm

I've just entered the world of rowing, so I'm pretty sure this is a dumb question, but should I be working toward hitting a race distance at a higher damper? I thought I read it's similar to bike gears, and if that's the case the fastest you can go is at the top gears.

All of the above answers are correct, but it's not a dumb question. 99.9% of people who start rowing will assume that they should set the damper to 10, not least as virtually every gym PT will whack it up to 10.

There is no 'right' drag factor so have a play around and find what works for you. You might like it lower than 130 and all that really matters is that you find the right drag to maximise your performance.

soggycow wrote: ↑

February 11th, 2020, 3:14 pm

I thought I read it's similar to bike gears, and if that's the case the fastest you can go is at the top gears.

If you are right, why didn't they just make the top gear on those bikes even higher than it is? That would be an easy way to go faster, right?

And why do they have gears at all? You would want to use the top gear all the time anyway.

The obvious answer is that the top gear is not necessarily the fastest. The correct gear is the fastest.

The power you produce is the product of rotational speed of the crank and the torque you apply to the crank. If you choose a too low gear, you will not be able to produce the required rotational speed, because your legs can't keep up. If you choose a too high gear, you will not be able to produce the required torque, because your legs don't have the strength.

So the best gearing for maximal power output is at the sweet spot where you can hit the best combination of rotational speed and torque.

And that is very similar to rowing.

soggycow wrote: ↑

February 11th, 2020, 3:14 pm

I've just entered the world of rowing, so I'm pretty sure this is a dumb question, but should I be working toward hitting a race distance at a higher damper? I thought I read it's similar to bike gears, and if that's the case the fastest you can go is at the top gears.

Not a dumb question and commonly asked. It is almost certain that your best 2k times will be done with a DF between 100 and 130 rather than higher just as has suggested above. Just don't overthink it I reckon - find a sweet spot and stick with it - it really isn't that important. Fitness, strength and technique are all way more significant contributors to performance.

This is still clear as mud to me.
In order to bring it into terms I can grasp, someone please answer this:
-My damper setting is 130. I am outputting 120 watts at 25 strokes per minute.
-My damper setting is changed to 150. Will the following occur? a) I will output >120 watts if I maintain 25 strokes per minute; b) If I continue to output 120 watts, my stroke rate will fall to <25 strokes per minute.
In the bicycle gearing analogy, it is most certainly true that if I shift to my big ring and maintain the same cadence my power output (and road speed) will necessarily increase, as in a) above. Similarly, if I shift to my big ring and maintain the same road speed, my cadence will drop, as in b) above.
Is this how it works on a C2 when we change the damper?
Thanks!

Zuman wrote: ↑

February 13th, 2020, 1:51 pm

-My damper setting is 130. I am outputting 120 watts at 25 strokes per minute.
-My damper setting is changed to 150. Will the following occur?

a) I will output >120 watts if I maintain 25 strokes per minute;

b) If I continue to output 120 watts, my stroke rate will fall to <25 strokes per minute.

No to both. If you want to, you can continue outputting 120 watts at 25 strokes per minute. It is only a question of how hard you pull the handle (and for how long a distance you pull it).

Unlike the bicycle, there is not a fixed relationship between stroke rate, drag factor and watts.

You don't even have to change the drag factor to test this out for yourself:
If you row at 120 watts and 25 SPM, try lowering your stroke rate to 20 SPM, and then pull harder in each stroke until you are again up to 120 watts. Now you are rowing at 120 watts and 20 SPM, and you haven't changed your drag factor.

This is still clear as mud to me.

No problem, forget it, unless you are prepared to study behavior of a fan braked flywheel from the point of view of its Dynamics**.

So long as you keep drag low, you'll be able to pull a long fast hard stroke, and so get fit, even using low ratings.

Remember to take plenty of rest between strokes (at low ratings) so that you can work very hard in each one; boats and flywheels keep spinning fast if drag is low, so there's no need to rush to the next stroke.

** The load we feel when pulling on the erg is not the fan drag, but the flywheel inertia, as you'll notice when pulling the first strokes from a standstill. All drag does is slow the flywheel between strokes to a speed that suits us.

Tour de France riders will shorten crank-arm length which increases cadence while decreasing torque. This shifts workload from muscles and joints to lungs/cardiovascular system.

Everyone's physiology is different. It may be more efficient for one person to go higher torque, lower cadence.

Different events will have different optimal setups too - a 100 meter sprint is anaerobic so a high drag factor will let a rower lay down a lot of power, for a short period of time where aerobic capacity doesn't come into play.

Watch Brian Shaw, world's strongest man, practically tear a Model E apart setting a 100 meter record: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVl0Zt-kZys

A 2k is a test of aerobic capacity (VO2max). Your lungs are doing the heavy lifting, you can't jam the damper all the way to 10 and expect optimal performance.

CJOttawa wrote: ↑

February 13th, 2020, 8:03 pm

Tour de France riders will shorten crank-arm length which increases cadence while decreasing torque.

Not quite right. They may shorten crank length slightly to increase cadence, but it has nothing to do with torque or power. Studies have shown that small, even larger, differences in crank length have little effect on maximal power output, but a shorter crank length allows that maximal power to be reached sooner (we're talking elite cyclists here and small but measurable differences. Most of us wouldn't be able to notice any difference).

Back to drag factor. Just like you would find the most comfortable bike gearing for the conditions you are riding in (windy, hills, etc.) you find the drag factor that feels most comfortable to you. It may vary with the workout you are doing, or not (I set mine at about 125 for almost everything). Simple. The power (speed) you generate is purely a function of how hard you pull the handle.

Zuman wrote: ↑

February 13th, 2020, 1:51 pm

This is still clear as mud to me.

Assuming you have a good idea of the power or pace (they're intimately, but not linearly related) you want to row, I think the simplest thing is to experiment:

Start with the lever at a very low setting, then row for, say, 500m at your desired power or pace and stroke rate. Get a good idea of how that feels. Then increase the damper position up by about 2 positions. Repeat the 500m row (same power/pace and stroke rate) and see if you can tell the difference. Work your way up to 10. You absolutely should be able to tell the difference between very low damping and very high damping, in a) how things feel at the handle at the catch and during the drive, and b) how the flywheel behaves (slows down) during your recovery.

Play around a bit and decide what feels best to you. It might take a while to decide, in which case maybe it doesn't make a huge difference to you. At that point check the Drag Factor and remember what it is.

Once you've settled on a DF use that for your next few sessions. Then, just for kicks, again try a somewhat higher and somewhat lower DF. Does that feel any different? Do you get better times for the same perceived effort?

It all comes down to what you like best. Then, if you really want to dig into it, you can start thinking about the numbers.

Good Luck