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Drag factor
Posted: June 26th, 2019, 3:40 pm
by GordG
First post. Started rowing in January, addicted by June. Since then it's been row, research, adjust, repeat. Today I discovered all rowing machines are not created equal. I happened upon this when I suddenly found myself rowing a tugboat at my gym. It was a DRAG.
I tested the three rowers at the gym.
DAMPER SETTING / DRAG FACTOR:
1.) 1/66, 10/146
2.) 1/69, 10/169
3.) 1/70, 10/190
Only one came close to the Concept2 suggested drag factor range of 1/70 - 10/200.
Difficult solution: Ask management to learn the nuanced art of rowing machine maintenance
Simple solution: set-up according to the drag factor rather than the damper setting.
Unfortunately, the simple solution did not solve all my problems. Though I enjoy rhythmic steady state workouts, I have a need for speed and I feel the 190 drag factor may be compromising my power in the short distances (60 hwt: 1:00 360m, 1:27.2 500m). Do you find the low drag factor has a significant impact on results, or is a difference of 10 a minor issue?
I look forward to your feedback.
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 26th, 2019, 6:58 pm
by MPx
IMO on the very short workouts (<500), if you're very strong, then a lower DF will make a noticeable difference probably exacerbated the poorer your technique. Most new machines are well over 200 (mine was 226) and it made a difference to me. But anything 500 and above will almost certainly deliver better results by getting better at rowing at a lower DF...
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 27th, 2019, 5:05 am
by lindsayh
There has been a lot of debate around here on what to do as most gym machines are less than clean. I have asked a few to clean them and offer to show how and that can work (my lowest df at 10 is 86) - often they are open to learning. My current gym wouldn't let me clean and eventually I did it surreptitiously without telling them. However on these three machines even 146 is more than you need so just get into the habit of setting the DF at the beginning of each session at a similar number and just ignore the damper setting. (115 - 130 works best for most)
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 27th, 2019, 7:07 am
by Citroen
GordG wrote: ↑June 26th, 2019, 3:40 pm
DAMPER SETTING / DRAG FACTOR:
1.) 1/66, 10/146
2.) 1/69, 10/169
3.) 1/70, 10/190
#3 looks OK, depending on your elevation above sea-level. The folks a mile (1600m) above sea-level in Colorado get a noticeable effect on their drag.
The other two machines are a lot less bad than I've seen, but could still do with a bit of TLC.
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 27th, 2019, 8:52 am
by Ted12
I had similar problem in my gym,
damper on 1 giving df 55
damper on 10 giving df 85
I reported it to guys on reception and explained about hoovering them and they got the machines cleaned.
No issues now
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 12:47 pm
by GordG
MPx wrote: ↑June 26th, 2019, 6:58 pm
IMO on the very short workouts (<500), if you're very strong, then a lower DF will make a noticeable difference probably exacerbated the poorer your technique. Most new machines are well over 200 (mine was 226) and it made a difference to me. But anything 500 and above will almost certainly deliver better results by getting better at rowing at a lower DF...
Thanks Mike. Makes sense. Before I discovered the DF setting, I'd incrementally lower my damper setting as I shifted to steady state aerobic distances (500>). My current 2k damper setting is between 6 and 7. Once I discovered the DF, I compared the entire range of damper to DF settings and found which setting gave me a 135 - 140 DF. No doubt, a bit high, but for me it seems to be the best balance of power and endurance at this point in my journey.
Technique has been an on going challenge, As I imagine it will be for a longtime. The perfect rowing stroke seems to be as complicated and elusive as the perfect golf swing (form, timing, and flawless repetition in all conditions).
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 12:59 pm
by GordG
lindsayh wrote: ↑June 27th, 2019, 5:05 am
There has been a lot of debate around here on what to do as most gym machines are less than clean. I have asked a few to clean them and offer to show how and that can work (my lowest df at 10 is 86) - often they are open to learning. My current gym wouldn't let me clean and eventually I did it surreptitiously without telling them. However on these three machines even 146 is more than you need so just get into the habit of setting the DF at the beginning of each session at a similar number and just ignore the damper setting. (115 - 130 works best for most)
Thanks for the feedback. There was a moment when I considered cleaning the rower "surreptitiously" but unfortunately the rowers in my gym are in the middle of a high traffic area.
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 1:18 pm
by GordG
Citroen wrote: ↑June 27th, 2019, 7:07 am
GordG wrote: ↑June 26th, 2019, 3:40 pm
DAMPER SETTING / DRAG FACTOR:
1.) 1/66, 10/146
2.) 1/69, 10/169
3.) 1/70, 10/190
#3 looks OK, depending on your elevation above sea-level. The folks a mile (1600m) above sea-level in Colorado get a noticeable effect on their drag.
The other two machines are a lot less bad than I've seen, but could still do with a bit of TLC.
Appreciate the feedback. I'm so far from the sea, I forget it exists (but there are a lot of wonderful lakes). Apparently my location is 482m above sea level.
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 1:26 pm
by mitchel674
What is your concern? Get on a rower and adjust the damper to your desired DF as displayed by the PM. It wouldn't hurt to mention to management that they should maintain their dusty ergs, but you have enough DF range in those machines to meet your requirements.
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 1:40 pm
by GordG
Ted12 wrote: ↑June 27th, 2019, 8:52 am
I had similar problem in my gym,
damper on 1 giving df 55
damper on 10 giving df 85
I reported it to guys on reception and explained about hoovering them and they got the machines cleaned.
No issues now
I'll mention the issue to management. Unfortunately the rowers are only one piece of equipment in a gym with a myriad of equipment. I empathize with management to a point. It's a slow decline, and the majority of people using the rowing machines don't know (or care) about drag factors, they simply want to feel like they've worked out. It seems to me, clean machines requires a degree of vigilance that is difficult to achieve in a busy gym. I've considered checking out the local rowing club - where maintenance is a priority.
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 2:22 pm
by GordG
mitchel674 wrote: ↑June 28th, 2019, 1:26 pm
What is your concern? Get on a rower and adjust the damper to your desired DF as displayed by the PM. It wouldn't hurt to mention to management that they should maintain their dusty ergs, but you have enough DF range in those machines to meet your requirements.
Thanks for the feedback. My main concern is establishing a consistent standard that matches the world standard for C2 ergs, so my logbook statistics are accurately reflected. I realize variables: location, settings, mechanics, physiology, (honesty) etc., etc. make the ideal merely a guidepost for better performance - but I like to aim for the ideal so the less than ideal better approximates my effort.
I can find my best DF setting at the lower levels because they fall within the parameters of the dirty machine. But my sprint distances are compromised because I can't set the DF high enough. No doubt, any time on any rower is going to have a positive effect (barring poor form injuries), but I use the rankings for motivation.
I enjoy the push of friendly competition, and for that reason I try to represent myself accurately.
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 3:19 pm
by hjs
GordG wrote: ↑June 26th, 2019, 3:40 pm
First post. Started rowing in January, addicted by June. Since then it's been row, research, adjust, repeat. Today I discovered all rowing machines are not created equal. I happened upon this when I suddenly found myself rowing a tugboat at my gym. It was a DRAG.
I tested the three rowers at the gym.
DAMPER SETTING / DRAG FACTOR:
1.) 1/66, 10/146
2.) 1/69, 10/169
3.) 1/70, 10/190
Only one came close to the Concept2 suggested drag factor range of 1/70 - 10/200.
Difficult solution: Ask management to learn the nuanced art of rowing machine maintenance
Simple solution: set-up according to the drag factor rather than the damper setting.
Unfortunately, the simple solution did not solve all my problems. Though I enjoy rhythmic steady state workouts, I have a need for speed and I feel the 190 drag factor may be compromising my power in the short distances (60 hwt: 1:00 360m, 1:27.2 500m). Do you find the low drag factor has a significant impact on results, or is a difference of 10 a minor issue?
I look forward to your feedback.
Drag is certainly a factor, not so much over longer distances, but for pure speed work most people do better on higher drags.
They only solution is getting the machines cleaned. Maybe print out the cleaning proces and show magement. You can complain about lack of maintenance which does influence your training.
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 3:28 pm
by Allan Olesen
GordG wrote: ↑June 28th, 2019, 2:22 pm
Thanks for the feedback. My main concern is establishing a consistent standard that matches the world standard for C2 ergs, so my logbook statistics are accurately reflected. I realize variables: location, settings, mechanics, physiology, (honesty) etc., etc. make the ideal merely a guidepost for better performance - but I like to aim for the ideal so the less than ideal better approximates my effort.
I don't know if you have already understood this, but just to be sure:
A filthy fan cage will not cause your workout stats to lose any accuracy.
If you have two rowers, one with drag factor 140 with a clean fan cage on setting 4, and one with drag factor 140 with a dirty fan cage on setting 9, you will get the same resistance on both rowers, and you will get the same workout stats if you do the same effort.
So there are no problems until the fan cage starts getting so dirty that you can't get the drag factor you want.
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 3:30 pm
by Anth_F
hjs wrote: ↑June 28th, 2019, 3:19 pm
S
They only solution is getting the machines cleaned. Maybe print out the cleaning proces and show magement. You can complain about lack of maintenance which does influence your training.
You make me chuckle at times Henry.
You spell the complex words correctly then i see magement
Re: Drag factor
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 5:27 pm
by hjs
Anth_F wrote: ↑June 28th, 2019, 3:30 pm
hjs wrote: ↑June 28th, 2019, 3:19 pm
S
They only solution is getting the machines cleaned. Maybe print out the cleaning proces and show magement. You can complain about lack of maintenance which does influence your training.
You make me chuckle at times Henry.
You spell the complex words correctly then i see magement
Sometimes I read back, but not seldom I am to lazy....
