Issue with the C2 ... slack on pull back ??

[Bagger]

I just purchased a D model C2 rower.

While I am not all that familiar with rowing, I am not new to working out or aerobic exercise. I mountain bike and was an avid runner for years, as well.

So ... I get the C2 and set it up. Very easy, I must say. Viewed the technic vids online and went to row.

I set the erg to 3 and started out. Seemed to take a bit of time to get the hang of it, but ... I have mirrors in the work out area to watch my technic. I seem to be doing what was shown on the vid.

But, here's the deal .... on the push back (legs) I seem to have some slack in the initial phase of this movement. Maybe a foot or more of no resistance, then I feel the chain catch and resistance occurs for the last 2 motions ... lean back and pull back. (I know I may not be using the correct names for these phases of the row, sorry)

I've viewed the vids several times and looked for help as well. I've tried to slow it down ... do legs only ... arms only, etc. But, I don't seem to feel much in the leg part. Pretty easy to glide back and forth.

If I do legs only ... I feel little if any resistance. And, at the end of my rowing, my legs feel little stress.

I've only rowed a few times. I average about 3500 m in 20 min at erg level 3-4.
My first workout was 30 min and 5200 m. Think I do like 24-26 s/min. Still new to the C2.

Anyone have an opinion why I don't feel much resistance? Something wrong with the catch? I appreciate any tho'ts. Thanx.

[Bob S.]

Drive hard with the legs as if you were leaping into the air from a squatting position. But make very sure that you don't let the body angle decrease. That is to say that your shoulders should keep up with the seat. Otherwise you would be doing what is called shooting the slide - wasting the leg movement in just moving your body and not the handle.

It is not easy for you to spot this, even with a mirror, but it will definitely show up in a video taken from the side.

Bob S.

[jamesg]

Bagger,

What you've seen is normal, it's the distance it takes us to get the handle speed up to flywheel speed plus any slack in the free-wheel. The same happens on a bike when we start pedaling, with the bike already moving.

The effect is to penalise short strokes; so we pull long ones and we move quick. What LONG means you can see by doing the back stop drill, which will help you to learn to row. Start by sitting up straight, with legs straight; pull arms only for a minute or so, then add swing, after hands away, again for a minute or two. The start to lift your knees a little, AFTER the swing forward. The over about five minutes, gradually increase knee lift until you reach shins vertical with hands at the chain guard.

The pull is in reverse sequence, slide, swing, arms, with some overlap. Relax and keep your back straight. Damper 3 or even lower is fine, it lets us pull fast strokes so leaves plenty of time for a slow recovery: the flywheel is like a boat, it keeps going, so there's no hurry to catch the next stroke.

During the drill you'll see your rating (strokes/minute) drop continuously from about 60 (arms only) to 24-20 full length, according to your height, with pace getting faster, up to a cruise speed of say 200W or 2.00/500m at rating 20. Then keep going, by now you'll be warm. 30 minutes at 200W will do as a first target, though of course it depends on your age sex and height.

As for resistance, you can pull as hard as you like to accelerate the flyweel; machine has only dynamic (inertial) resistance, so it depends on your technique. However to get tired,if you pull a long stroke, you won't need to pull very hard. There's no static weight to lift, which is the main advantage of the erg.

As controls of what we're actually doing, you can watch: distance per stroke, 10 metres; Work per stroke (ratio between Watts and rating) also 10; heart rate, using the HR range idea.

Summing up, the keywords in rowing are: Length; Relax; Sequence; Fast stroke; Slow recovery. Above all, relax.

At the catch you should be in position as shown here:

http://www.britishrowing.org/taking-par ... oke/indoor

The machine shown here is on slides, but the technique is identical. The words are important too.

[Citroen]

I just purchased a D model C2 rower.

...

I set the erg to 3 and started out.

It that a new machine or a secondhand one?

What's the drag factor you get at damper 3?
http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38

[Bagger]

Thanx for the help.

It is a new machine. I'm sure my 'issue' results from improper technic.

That said .... if I hold the handle to my lower chest and just slide back and forth with my legs, I feel nearly no resistance. I find this odd.

I will have to read and re-read the posts here to gain more insight to my problem. I'm not familiar with the monitor and all the things it can do. So far, I just row and watch the S/M, meters rowed and time.

I may try to go somewhere where they have a C2 and see how it's done and compare to my machine.

Thanx so much for the help.

Bagger

[hjs]

Thanx for the help.

It is a new machine. I'm sure my 'issue' results from improper technic.

That said .... if I hold the handle to my lower chest and just slide back and forth with my legs, I feel nearly no resistance. I find this odd.

I will have to read and re-read the posts here to gain more insight to my problem. I'm not familiar with the monitor and all the things it can do. So far, I just row and watch the S/M, meters rowed and time.

I may try to go somewhere where they have a C2 and see how it's done and compare to my machine.

Thanx so much for the help.

Bagger

how old, tall etc are you, you seem to row at a very low intensity, the resistance is air resistance, it you dont get the fan spinning you indeed won't feel much.
Think of it this way, you should push with your legs as if you where jumping in the air from 90 degree squat position.

[enrage]

[Bagger]

how old, tall etc are you, you seem to row at a very low intensity, the resistance is air resistance, it you dont get the fan spinning you indeed won't feel much.

I'm 65.5 years old. 6' 2" and 215 lbs. I'm in pretty decent shape, but crashed my mountain bike in September and broke my right hand, couple ribs and right zygoma ... plus lots of bruises and road rash from the dirt. Sorta healed, now ... hence the interest in the C2. Can't crash it, eh.

I typically do a full body weight circuit training couple times a week in 25 minutes. Ride the mountain bike (weather permitting, cast off, yada, yada) couple times a week, too. Shoot some hoops, hit the heavy bag ... whatever I can do. Tho't rowing would be a good deal in bad weather. Oh, and also ride a recumbent (indoor) bike here and there.

Watched a bunch of rowing videos on YouTube today. Some on the errors of rowing, others on technic. The problem with the 'slack' may be due to improper technic. I tried to watch in the mirrors to see if I was doing it properly. Seemed to be so, but I'll have to keep an active watch.

Today, I did a 10 minute 2000 m row at an avg watt of 104, 33 split (?) and 26-28 s/m. Followed by a 12 minute cool down of 2000 m at an avg watt of 64 and 20 s/m. I was breathing a bit hard at the end of the 1st stint, but not a great deal. These were at level 4 on the fan dial.

When I read part of the manual, it stated to start at level 3 or 4 ... even lower ... and get the hang of it. I think 20 - 22 s/m. I still get some slack initially. I'll have to see if I'm over reaching, or shooting the slide, tho it doesn't appear so to me in the mirror.

BTW ... I have constant/permanent atrial fibrillation (afib) for the last 10 years due to Lyme Disease. So, I can't get my heart rate very high ... maybe 145 or so. And, I don't get more than 60% of my O2. PITA, but could be worse.

I'll keep working on the technic. I've only had the C2 for little over a week and only rowed 5 times. I may be rushing the return somewhat.

[Cyclist2]

What everyone else says, but here is another thought. Based on your cycling and running, your legs are very strong, but your core and upper body are not (relatively speaking). When first learning to row, your upper body can't support the effort from your legs into the handle, so it feels like most of the work is coming from your upper body and arms. After a while, and with continued work on technique, you'll find that holding your upper body solid against the leg drive and transferring that power to the handle will get easier and better. Believe me, your legs will start feeling the work. Keep on rowing, you'll get there pretty quickly.

[Bob S.]

Today, I did a 10 minute 2000 m row at an avg watt of 104, 33 split (?) and 26-28 s/m. Followed by a 12 minute cool down of 2000 m at an avg watt of 64 and 20 s/m. I was breathing a bit hard at the end of the 1st stint, but not a great deal. These were at level 4 on the fan dial.

A few suggestions, if I may. To get an idea of how well you are doing, check out the online rankings:

http://log.concept2.com/rankings.asp

Watts are the best way to measure the effort in an erg piece. Unfortunately most of the forum members go by pace, i.e. time per 500m. A wattage of 104 corresponds to a pace of 2:29.8/500m.

I don't know what you could mean by a 33 split. The term split is usually used to designate how a piece has been divided up. For a set piece, you can program the monitor to have up to 30 splits in any particular piece. For example, it is common to have four 500m splits in a 2k and that is the default value if you don't override it with your own choice. The advantage of using splits is that the data from each split is stored. If I do a 30' piece, I set it for thirty 1 minute splits so that I have the pace (or watts or cal/hr) and distance for each minute and, using a heart rate monitor, the heart beat level at the end of each 1' split.

The fan dial setting (called the damper setting) can be ambiguous, It is better to use the drag factor, which is dependent on the damper setting, but also on several other variables. For more information on the drag factor, check:

Understanding Drag Factor:

http://www.concept2.com/us/training/adv ... factor.asp

Damper Setting & Workout Intensity:

http://www.concept2.com/us/training/bas ... ensity.asp

Bob S.

[Citroen]

Today, I did a 10 minute 2000 m row at an avg watt of 104, 33 split (?) and 26-28 s/m. Followed by a 12 minute cool down of 2000 m at an avg watt of 64 and 20 s/m. I was breathing a bit hard at the end of the 1st stint, but not a great deal. These were at level 4 on the fan dial.

You need to learn the jargon. You're using terms that none of us understand. Read this: http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38

[hjs]

this explanes a lot, you simply don,t do much work, the stroke is not powerful enough to feel enough resistance. try cycling with the same watts at a normal spm and you also will have the feeling that you have no resistance.
100 watt for 33 spm translates to 3 watts per stroke.
A 7 min 2k, would be 300 watts that would mean 3 times as much power per stroke.

What power do you train on a bike?

how old, tall etc are you, you seem to row at a very low intensity, the resistance is air resistance, it you dont get the fan spinning you indeed won't feel much.

I'm 65.5 years old. 6' 2" and 215 lbs. I'm in pretty decent shape, but crashed my mountain bike in September and broke my right hand, couple ribs and right zygoma ... plus lots of bruises and road rash from the dirt. Sorta healed, now ... hence the interest in the C2. Can't crash it, eh.

I typically do a full body weight circuit training couple times a week in 25 minutes. Ride the mountain bike (weather permitting, cast off, yada, yada) couple times a week, too. Shoot some hoops, hit the heavy bag ... whatever I can do. Tho't rowing would be a good deal in bad weather. Oh, and also ride a recumbent (indoor) bike here and there.

Watched a bunch of rowing videos on YouTube today. Some on the errors of rowing, others on technic. The problem with the 'slack' may be due to improper technic. I tried to watch in the mirrors to see if I was doing it properly. Seemed to be so, but I'll have to keep an active watch.

Today, I did a 10 minute 2000 m row at an avg watt of 104, 33 split (?) and 26-28 s/m. Followed by a 12 minute cool down of 2000 m at an avg watt of 64 and 20 s/m. I was breathing a bit hard at the end of the 1st stint, but not a great deal. These were at level 4 on the fan dial.

When I read part of the manual, it stated to start at level 3 or 4 ... even lower ... and get the hang of it. I think 20 - 22 s/m. I still get some slack initially. I'll have to see if I'm over reaching, or shooting the slide, tho it doesn't appear so to me in the mirror.

BTW ... I have constant/permanent atrial fibrillation (afib) for the last 10 years due to Lyme Disease. So, I can't get my heart rate very high ... maybe 145 or so. And, I don't get more than 60% of my O2. PITA, but could be worse.

I'll keep working on the technic. I've only had the C2 for little over a week and only rowed 5 times. I may be rushing the return somewhat.

[Bagger]

Thanx for all the information and help. I'm still new with the rower and I'm sorry if I don't have all the lingo down pat. I'll work on that. Altho, drag and such are a bit ambiguous IMO.

Rowing 2000 meters in 10 minutes for my 4th row may not be some sort of great task, but for someone who has just started rowing, I'm pretty happy with that. That pace was not overly stressful, but I was a bit winded.

OK .... I'll continue to work on my technic. I think that is why I'm not feeling the power stroke in my legs. Plus, someone stated that I may have more leg strength than upper body. I don't think this is the case. I've always been pretty powerful with my upper body, with my lower body lagging behind a bit. And, I've not done much 'free biking', just the indoor recumbent stuff (LlifeCycle R7i) since I crashed in September. Level 8 for 30 minutes followed by 25 minutes of circuit weight training. Biking out doors on the trail, I can do 10 miles in less than an hour. Crashing adds about 4 hours to the time.

I'll try to input the drag factor and see what my results are.

BTW, my back is a bit taut and my legs are somewhat tight today after the 4000 meter row yesterday. I was going to ride my mtn bike today, but with temps in the 70s, I chose a motorcycle.

I'll check back in next week.

[Bob S.]

Altho, drag and such are a bit ambiguous IMO.

On the contrary. The drag factor is quite specific and the monitor gives you the number. A damper setting is a bit ambiguous because it is only one of several features that affect the drag factor. With a new machine, the major effect, dirt in the cage, is not a problem. If you should happen to be on a trip and use a machine in a hotel exercise room or at a fitness center it is essential to check the drag factor, since it can be low by as much as 100 points if the cage is very dirty.

Choosing which drag factor is best for you is another matter. The C2 site gives advice on what most folks have found to work best, but it takes a lot of experimenting if you want to fine tune it. But first it is well to stick with something in the middle of the recommended range until you have a few hundred thousand meters on the machine and then start trying out variations.

Bob S.

[Bagger]

Bob S ...

I appreciate your posts, and everyone else.

I meant that the ambiguity is in the terminology, not the actual fact. I need to look at where the Drag Factor is located on the PM.

100 -130 a range that should be a point of reference. Lower is better ... according to the links that were sent me.

I'll continue to work out a couple three times a week and see what shakes out. I also know a person that has rowed with a C2 (who recommended me buy this machine) and I can see if he will come to my hacienda and assist me in my technic. He's rowed in contests before and should be a good source of information.

Thanx, everyone. I'll check back in a few.