Stretched Shock Cord & Time

[bloomp]

Look,

I am not opposed to change. But you sit there sniping a great product without giving C2 any credit for producing a great machine. Instead of adding meaningless commentary, come up with a design that satisfies a few criteria:

1) Does not significantly increase the price of the machine (no more than $50 more expensive)
2) Does not change the footprint of the machine (the machine must still take up the same space on the ground)
3) Does not impact the use of slides with the machine
4) Does not change the portability and easy storage of the machine

And then you come to the issue of marketing this new machine with really no new features to make it appealing. Will anyone really care that their time might be a second or two slower on what most users consider a training tool in the offseason? Probably not. Will people pull out their pocketbooks to try to level the playing field? Probably not. And then you face the issue of comparing times between your new machine and the old bungee-using machine - not everyone will buy this new product, so do you alienate them by saying a bungee machine cannot be used to rank pieces anymore (and thereby piss off almost your entire customer base) or do you allow them to continue ranking pieces with what you consider an 'unfair' advantage.

[Slidewinder]

You sit there sniping at a great product without giving C2 any credit for producing a great machine.

It could be a great machine. At present it is merely a good machine.

On the subject of this thread: I find it utterly obvious that variations in shock cord tension affect times. Recently, I posed the question to an intelligent visitor and he immediately replied that of course tension variations would affect times.
But throughout this lengthy thread only one other poster hesitantly averred that this might be true, but he quickly back-pedalled when he was accused by another poster of being critical of Concept 2. No, no, no, he protested, his faithfulness to Concept 2 has never wavered and never will.

For discussion, I introduced the idea of a weight-driven chain return system. Even though such a system at present doesn't exist, some posters (you among them) became enraged at the very mention of such a thing. Visualizing various design possibilities for the C2 machine doesn't anger me, why does it have this effect on you?

It's bizarre and pathetic what being a C2 groupie can do to one's mind.

Note to c2jonw:
If C2 staff get up to Trent University in the fall (Head of the Trent), ask to visit the second floor of the boathouse.
There are some interesting old rowing machines there. One as I recall has the long handle and rack and pinion drive you describe. Robert

[Carl Watts]

Ok lets look at this from a different perspective.

Cars are in need of serious improvement, lets get rid of the internal combustion engine and the wheels and have them flying along 6inches off the ground like you see in the movies. Great idea so why doesn't someone build one ?

It's all very well to suggest a better design alternative, but you first have to build it and have it working and meet all the other requirements like cost and reliability.

The C2 Erg is a great machine, I have done a bit of mechanical and electronics design & build myself and the C2 Erg has the core basics right for what it is intended for. It is not designed to perfectly replicate OTW, however it is a training tool and develops physical fitness and can certainly test your mental toughness to the very limits exactly the same as OTW.

There are numerious things that can affect your time on the Erg, the biggest one for me is the ambient temperature & humidity to the point I actually manually record the temperature in the Log.

[Slidewinder]

Carl Watts,

Re: Your argument that a simple, non-elastic chain return system for the C2 machine is like proposing an anti-gravity propulsion system for an automobile. -You can't be serious.

Bloomp,

No adjustment, no replacement, constant return force regardless of age or use - These are attractive and sellable improvements. Such a system would be calibrated to match the chain return force of a new C2 machine so that existing times and rankings would remain valid. (but I think you could have figured this out for yourself)


All the C2 users who vigorously and vocally oppose any change to the machine need to take a more historical perspective.

The old rowing machines in the attic of the Trent University boathouse, mentioned in my last posting, were once the state-of-the-art. They look like medieval torture devices now, but to rowing athletes of the day, they would have been "great" machines, just as the C2 ergometer is described by many here as a "great" machine.

But who uses those "great" medieval-looking contraptions now? The same thing will happen to the C2 ergometer if C2 doesn't meet the current and continuing challenge of change. Users of the C2 ergometer who remain wilfully blind to its deficiencies are, in the longer term, not doing Concept 2 any favours.

C2 has had a wonderful three decade run, but I sense that the ground has started to shift. New players are emerging. New approaches are being seen. The chain return system we have been discussing is just one aspect of this broader picture.

What will rowing machines look like in fifty years? No one can predict. Of one thing though, we can be certain: They won't look like the Model D.

[bloomp]

Don't you see they hypocrisy in what you're saying? It's not okay for everyone to have bungee shock cords that can be millionths of a degree apart, but as long as we offer a machine that nobody will buy, the problem will entirely go away. It's not like you get to a certain point in using the machine and think, OH WOW I REALLY NEED TO TIGHTEN THE SHOCK CORD. No, you realize that it's very very slack and fix it. There are an infinite number of tightness degrees that the cord can take before you realize that you might need to tighten it - so how does still including the ranking times from a machine that uses a shock cord fix everything?

The next wave of rowing machines will be different, yeah, but they will not deal with such a petty thing as handle return. Remember, this is a training tool first and the racing/ranking community mostly realizes that and probably does not care at all about whether their shock cord tension affects their races/ranked pieces.

Also, you still failed to suggest something that met any of my very gracious and reasonable criteria. Is that because you don't know, or are simply promoting meaningless discussion for the sake of seeming important? Wonderful that you think a new method of handle return would be a great selling point, but until there's a design for it that proves that it will not drastically modify the components of the machine that I listed it will not sell.

[Carl Watts]

Clearly you have a problem seeing the bigger picture. Of course the C2 Erg is going to look different in 50 years, then again so are cars as it is a safe prediction there will be NO fossil fuel left for starters.....

I would suggest you just stop complaining and rank some pieces in your signature, or is it that your so slow your trying to blame the cord ?

[Slidewinder]

bloomp,

Re: "Wonderful that you think a new method of handle return would be a great selling point, but until there is a design for it...etc"

As you are aware, I have already made several improvements to the Model D - the "Slidewinder" version I call it. I replaced the stock, single-piece handle (a bio-mechanical abomination) with a simple articulated design (a huge improvement). I threw out the fussy and loosening-prone foot straps and installed a simple, one-hand operated mechanical hold-down. I added a simple structure to the seat to prevent loose clothing from getting caught under the seat roller. All these are simple and effective improvements which have been enthusiastically received by both rowers and non-rowers.

When I have time (I am currently working on another project), I will turn my attention to the chain return system.

I understand mechanics. I have been blessed with better than average spacial visualization abilities. I know how to design and build things.

I have made preliminary sketches of a simple, gravity-driven chain return system that satisfies all of the criteria that concern you. I am optimistic that the sketched design will also solve the problem of inertia and direction change (mentioned by me and c2jonw in earlier postings). If physical tests show promise I will continue to work on it. If these ideas bear fruit, you will be one of the first to know.